View Full Version : what happens when we die?
billyloner
23-02-2005, 13:38
personally, i believe that consciousness is some sort of freak accident, when we die that is it, we are over. i find it incredibly hard to consider though unless im stoned.
ive always that once were dead, were dead...thats it...game over.
Hyperreal
23-02-2005, 14:03
Death is just another trip. Everyone here has experienced not just the standard 'human condition', but a variety of other metaphysical states. Death is one more.
The soul can't be destroyed because it's immaterial. Only physical things can be destroyed.
Has anyone ever considered the eschatological implications of Huxley's Doors of Perception theory. If it is true that the central nervous system serves to limit the information that comes to the consciousness, then when we die, we become a god, a supersoul, a Mind-at-Large, connected with everything, equivalent to everything.
Iggypoop
23-02-2005, 14:46
Thats pretty deep i have to say, but i just can't help but think that some people HAVE to believe that there is somewhere else after leaving this mortal coilsimplybecause they are so scared of death, i dont fancy dying right now, but i believe that death is the end.I also think atrip is a chemical imbalance in the brain which helps to join the concious and unconcious. The human mind is a very complex thing and we only seem to use what like 10% of it? i'd love a cat scan while tripping just to see if it makes those other bits of the brain light up. lol i'm just thinking out loud here, hey i guess we'll just never know! Edited by: iggypoop2
billyloner
23-02-2005, 15:18
im actually quite looking forward to dying. if that doesnt sound too weird. even though i think its the end of everything, i am still really curious as to what it feel like. it must feel like something right? for an instant, even if you have no awareness of it beyond that instant.
death is the final trip.Just before you die your brain will release a ton of neurotransmitters and start the "shutdown" of secundar body functions,as a result there will be a severe time dilatation effect,you will see/hear/feela lot intense shit ,and after a while your "conscious state" will be "turned off"-the brains last atempt to preserve bodys vital functions;your kidneys,liver and at last heart/respiratory system will stop;brain will work for a few more mins and youll finally die.after that youll start to rott,nothing more.. a lot of people cant acceptthe factthatwe are so transient,so theytalk about afterlife and shit,hell/heaven but i guess its more of a subconsious fear of death
the trip of dying will probably make the time dilatation so intense,you will think that that moment lasts forever,since there is no more memory after that moment,so in a sence i think huxley was kinda right,you become god,you go to hell/heaven,you sail the universe or whatever it is you trip...as i said you will notbe awarewhen it allfinally ends,so philosophically speaking from your,subjective point of view you will continue to exist forever,in a trip of your own making...
sorry if there are typo`s
Yeah, maybe... depending on how you died... if it were of natural causes, I could percieve this "breakdown" as possible.
I don't want to speculate, or fear, as fear is a kind of speculation in itself, no?
I am secretly hoping for reincarnation though-Oh no,the secret is nowout, woops. Gary Zukov is an interesting writer, delving into reincarnation, and much more.
idk man i had a crazy experience when i stopped breathing infront of my
mom for like 5 seconds, i saw a light, and some blue dots going twards
it also with me, but there was no one else, kinda like a tunnel with
lil blue specks going twords it, no fear no nervousness just
anxiousness... then i started to breath again
Muirner
turfshark_40
25-02-2005, 04:05
I think that death is it, once you die you're done, nothing happens after. I don't see why we would be given some sort of special afterlife based on our deeds in this world, without ever knowing for sure. I believe that the afterlife is something made up by people who are scared of death, who want and need something after life is over, to make the pain of life on earth more bearable. If you believe that no matter what, there is something better for you once you die, life seems easier to take.
egoDEATH
25-02-2005, 10:41
Life is a never-ending quest for knowledge. Knowledge feeds the mind - expanding the consciousness. When you die, your physical beingis permanentlytrapped (killingthe ego)in this world (which is eventually recycled back into Mother Earth). But, if youmanaged to create a strong enough conscious while you were alive you will befree from the pain...free to travel the cosmos and joinwhat Carl Jung has dubbed the "collective consciousness" (oras I like to think of it, the "collective subconscious consciousness" - meaning we are aware of what we've become, yet we stilldream).Becoming one Mind. A mind powerful enough to create its own realities.... dreams within dreams...a never-ending slumber, thus becoming eternal.
I do not believe in the existence of Gods/Goddesses. A God/Goddess wants to be worshipped and therefore has a strong ego. A "true" God/Goddesscan never have an ego....and would never consider itself a God/Goddess.
Death being the end of life is an illusion. The reality of the matter
is that life and death go hand in hand. It is a cycle that has been
going on for eons.
If we can come to realize that we are</span> the Universe and not</span> someone in</span> the Universe. We will find that we really</span> do not die.
We come up with the illusion that when we die there will be nothing
left. Let's examine the situation. What is nothing? Well, nothing isn't
anything. It doesn't exist. So how can there be nothing? There can't!
*If you're thinking no duh right now, then this means you havn't grasped the concept*
Someone once asked me, "why is there something rather than nothing". I explained that his question was nonsensical. There is no</span> such thing</span> as nothing. Nothing doesn't exist.
There is only</span> something</span>.
This something has always existed and will always exist (in some form
or another). This something is you, or rather, you are this something
that has existed forever (in some form or another).
Is there still life after a limited part</span>
of this Universe (something) dies? Be it a human, giraffe, fish or a
red blood cell? Yes. It is a continous process. It goes on and on and
on and on ....
You live. You die. You live. You die. You've been doing this
forever. This is how the Universe functions. You were born once
you can or even better, will be born again. And again. And again.
*Note: I'm not claiming that you will be the same person you are now nor am I implying reincarnation.
So you see, if one can understand that you - which is another illusion, you</span> do not exist, only the Universe exists - are</span> the Universe and not</span> something in</span>
the Universe, then life becomes perfectly clear. It makes sense. Death
is a natural process, but it is definitely not the end of life. Nor is
it the beginning.
The answer is so simple, yet increasingly difficult when trying to
explain it to others. We have been so culturally mind fucked
(especially if you live in Western society) into thinking that we are
not what is out there. We somehow think we are an individual separated
from the 'outside' world. This is an illusion.
You are the Universe exploring itself. Fundamentaly, you are God exploring Hisself.
I'll leave you with a lil' quote from Alan Watts:
To know that you are God is another way of saying that you feel completely with this universe. You feel profoundly rooted in it and connected with it. You feel, in other words, that the whole energy,
which expresses itself in the galaxies, is intimate. It is not
something to which you are a stranger, but it is that with which you,
whatever that is, are intimately bound up. That in your
seeing your hearing your talking your thinking your moving, you express
that which it is that moves the sun and other stars.
<blockquote>And if you don't know that,
if you don't feel that,
well naturally you feel alien,
you feel a stranger in the world.
</blockquote>
And if you feel a stranger you feel hostile, and
therefore you start to bulldoze things about, to beat it up and to try
to make the world submit to your will, and you become a real troublemaker.
Edited by: uNi151
I believe the after life is the same as pre life. It will be exactly like when we were never born. Life is just a one time miracle of the universe, due to trillions of years of evolution. Once we are done with life, we will be exactly where we were before and there will be no going back to life. It will be others turn to experience it.
You live. You die. You live. You die. You've been doing this forever. This is how the Universe functions.
I dont want to sound like a scientific pointdexterlike wiseass,but this can be interpreted only through the first priniple of thermodynamics:
mass can be "destroyed"(maybe the better word is degraded),but energy can neither be created nor destroyed so in a sence we are eternal,there is a possibility that some part of us,some electron or ion,was or in time will bea part of some star or even some other life form.
I think we all should realize that we are still very far from understanding the mysteries of our brain,or even how to use it properly.I think the following analogy is quite suitable for describing the human being-brain relation:
Imagine a neanderthalliving peacefully in his cave.Then some one gives him a supercomputer.So,what will he do with it?Calculate the trajectories of the celestial objects?Predict the next ice age?Surf for porn?-NO,most likely he will crack open a coconut with it.The same thing is with us and our brains,we still dont know how to use it,and we are still trying to crack open metaphysical(and some times physical) coconuts.
Hyperreal
25-02-2005, 15:43
Thermodynamics doesn't apply to the soul, because it is neither mass nor energy.
Parmenides said thatnothing can be destroyed because that would involveit passing from being into non-being, and (as uNi151 said) non-being is impossible.
The soul/ mind/ consciousness/ atman/ ghost in the machine/ awareness is a non-physical entity, so trying to destroy it would be like trying to destroy the number 6 - it can't be done.
billyloner
25-02-2005, 16:35
wow, some really good theories, will take quite awhile to consider them all properly!
*Note: I'm not claiming that you will be the same person you are now nor am I implying reincarnation.
so what will happen to the person you are now? i know my body is one with the universe, nothing more than the dirt beneath my feet or the air i breath, however im not so sure about my mind, my soul, whatever you want to call it. im yet to hear a good explanation of what the soul is, what the mind is. i certainly dont think that consciousness is identical in nature to hydrogen atoms, for example.
lolomgwtfbbq
25-02-2005, 21:45
I think that what everyone believes happens is what
happens to them. It's somewhat far-fetched and for it to work, all of
our conventional laws of physics and stuff would be proven incorrect,
but maybe it's possible for all of those things to exist at once.</font>
VincentVan
25-02-2005, 23:49
<DIV id=0></DIV>
<LABEL id=HbSession SessionId="3610419330" SessionId="3499614173">There is no doubt that the molecules of your decomposing body will blend into other compounds. No doubt that, according to the principles of conservation of the energy, the heat generated by these chemical processes will slightly alter their immediate physical sourroundings, possibly acting as catalizator for a new reaction. But so what? When we talk about ourselves we mean more than the mass of atoms and molecules that you can actually weight on a scale: We mean our consciousness. Our self consciousness. And that will be gone for good.</LABEL>
<LABEL SessionId="3499614173">The main postulate of the second principle of thermodinamics, that I have seen misplaced and misquoted ,a few postings back, is that enthropy is bound to increase. Exponentially. No matter what.</LABEL>
<LABEL SessionId="3499614173">Chaos is our destiny ;and it´s nearing, fast</LABEL>
<LABEL SessionId="3499614173">Yes, Chaos is coming. And I can´t wait.</LABEL>
<LABEL SessionId="3499614173">"...and the second angel poured his bowl into the sea, and it became like the blood of a dead man." (The Apocalypse). </LABEL>
<LABEL SessionId="3499614173"> VV</LABEL>
<LABEL SessionId="3499614173"></LABEL>P.S.
Let me suggest a beautiful book pertaining some aspects of this discussion: "The buried soul. How humans invented death". By Timothy Taylor. (HarperCollins Ltd.)
Edited by: VincentVan
Guys it seems to me that Im doomed to be the realistic,cynic bastard here....if i sound sometimes like a fascist science worshipping SOB that doesnt mean that i dont respect your opinions,i just get easily carried away...ok hereit goes:
Thermodynamics doesn't apply to the soul, because it is neither mass nor energy...The soul... is a non-physical entity, so trying to destroy it would be like trying to destroy the number 6 - it can't be done.
You are right,thermodynamics doesnt apply to the soul..but not because of its strucuture(or as you claim the lack of);but because it isnt a real entity,it is an imaginary concept,a tool.Let me clarify:The number 6,as you conveniently have stated cant be created nor destroyed.Thats because it is a imaginary tool,alone it has no meaning at all,it is undefined;but if you say 6 g of coke,6 philosophers,or -6degC ->suddenly it has a meaning,of quantity,of 6 funny dressed old men,of lack of heat...Another example is the imaginary number i(sqrt of -1).They exist not in reality but in our minds,because we are the first beings on earth that have the ability of abstract thinking...and the urge to explain things.
The same goes for the concept of the soul.Our brain is a mysterious device;and inside it there are countless esotheric processes going on.And a lot of them define our personality,our behaviour.So like a caveman witha computer who has the urge to explain what he is,we say: all those fealings,my ego,this impression i have about the outside,the physical against the feeling of the things inside,of me..we call that soul.Soul is a noun without meaning,it is a tool.A tool to describe "all of that inside,out of the physical world".Alone it shouldnt have a meaning,its real meaning,abstract or not should start when you first think of "my soul",of that thatyou feel but cant explain,ofthat that is me.
And here is were the problem starts,most peopleget this too literaly.Theybreathe life into a tool.An abstract and fairly complicatedtool,but still a tool.A tool that is used to describe what kind of alchemy goes on in your brain,what makes you-you.Untill we have more understanding of the things that go on in our brains we will continue to call all this "soul",but when the brain stops you stop,your soul doesnt continue to exist..
...still maybe there is a way you can continue to exist after you die,if you could somehow manage to copy all the things that of we consist,all the little processes,all the thoughts,all the memoriesonto/into some medium.....william gibson talked about this
you of all people should understand this,we all know how the slightest chemical imbalances causedifferent feelings,different patterns of thought,open different doors of perception,momentarily changing our"souls".
P!MPJU!C3
26-02-2005, 00:06
Judgement day.
U will want 2 be standing on the side of Christs right hand. U do not want to stand on the left side. The people on the left go 2 hell.
U can also pass in 2 limbo. Here u will burn untill ur sins
have been punished enough. After that u will be going in 2 heaven.
P!MPJU!C3
<LABEL SessionId="3499614173">Chaos is our destiny ;and it´s nearing, fast</LABEL>
<LABEL SessionId="3499614173">Yes, Chaos is coming. And I can´t wait.</LABEL>
<LABEL SessionId="3499614173">"...and the second angel poured his bowl into the sea, and it became like the blood of a dead man." (The Apocalypse).</LABEL>
The chem.eng. in me just had to comment on this:
enthropy decribes the amount of disorder.Things go from orderly,high energy level states to the low levelenergy states,more chaotic states.This is inevitable,in order to go the other way youll have to bring in additional energy,which cant be created from nothing,etc..
Yes,Chaos is our destiny,but it isnt the all that grandiose as we imagine it,there are no fiery skiesor rivers of blood;it is a slow,inevitable decay torwards the low energy states...it should be quite pleasant, a kind of a relaxed universe
..P!MPJU!C3 dont even get me started on that apocalypse shit.jugement day?you judge your self every day,every second..through every your decision...sorry but for me religion is an another rusty outdated,obsolete tool...Edited by: daeron
VincentVan
26-02-2005, 00:59
<LABEL id=HbSession SessionId="1315254403">Nobody talked of fiery skies and rivers of blood, whatever that may mean. </LABEL>
<LABEL SessionId="1315254403">I´m talking about the infinite , timeless, cold , quiteness of the Universe. The all embracing nothingness into wich all wordly sensations and actions will finally and definitely dissolve. The eternal, calm,indifferent, flow of empty eons.</LABEL>
<LABEL SessionId="1315254403">As in the beginning, so in the end. As in heaven soonto earth. As in the immense so in the infinitesimal. As for you so is for me.</LABEL>
there are two theories about this-one you just described:universe will continue to expand untill all has dissolved into the elemental particles(whatever they might be),time will stop..and apparently it will be hot as hell(enthropy->infinity;temp->really hot infinity).
the other one claims that in one moment the universe will stop expanding and will start to compress,untill it reaches singularity,one point infinitely small that has infinitely large mass..and then the next big bang will occurand it all starts over,but this time its all different the universe isnt 3d,its 2d or 1d or 6583853093530538 dimensional,etc
of course when the spiritual people heard these two theories(which may not be true at all),they had reached their own(IMHO kind ignorant)conclusions:there is either hell/heaven or there is a cycle of reincarnation...oh,well some people cant be helped
as for the fiery skies,and all..i was just being colorful
hey,i even got a quote for you:
"what lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."-Ralph W.EmersonEdited by: daeron
VincentVan
26-02-2005, 01:53
<LABEL id=HbSession SessionId="4184948610">When finally a unified theory will make possible to apply quantum mechanics to a relativistic universe, I am sure it will become evident how singularities are as vast as the universe (universes probably ) in wich they are included. And time just a function of the temporary state of the matter. </LABEL>
<LABEL SessionId="4184948610">You´ll love a book by Julian Barbour :"The end of time" (Orion Books Ldt.) It starts from Dirac`s , Shroedinger´s and Heisenberg´s quantistic theories to arrive to to an equation of time that satisfies relativistic principles too. Dazzling.</LABEL>
<LABEL SessionId="4184948610"> " ... I have seen things you humans will never be able to imagine."</LABEL>
<LABEL SessionId="4184948610"> (Philip K. Dick)</LABEL>
<LABEL SessionId="4184948610"></LABEL>
egoDEATH
26-02-2005, 08:59
Life-After-Death theories have always intrigued me. Since the Dawn of Man, we have been trying to figure out Why? It's human nature to want to know and understand everything. The Unknown keeps us guessing....it gives us a reason to live. I think the most important thing to remember is tohave a very open mind about everything. Don't restrict your mind's potential by letting religion, the government, or your ego overcome you. Think freely. The best things in life happen when your mind is open and willing to accept all the dreams and nightmares that may come.
so what will happen to the person you are now? </span>
The person you are now will no longer be. --->Insert name
here<--- time will be up. But what I'm trying to get people to
realize is that there is something behind the name. That something is
me, that something is you. I call it God. God doesn't die.
<>i know my body is one with the
universe, nothing more than the dirt beneath my feet or the air i
breath, however im not so sure about my mind, my soul, whatever you
want to call it. </span></>im yet to hear a good explanation of what the soul is, what the mind
is. i certainly dont think that consciousness is identical in nature to
hydrogen atoms, for example.</span><></span>
Honestly, I don't believe I have a 'soul'. A 'spirit' inside a body. I
believe that I am the Universe. I am you, just as much as you are me.
Terms such as "I", "you", "me" are subjective concepts we use to
describe what is 'out there'. But objectively there is nothing out
there that can be defined as "I", "you", or "me".
Let me try to clarify: Let's take for instance the United States of
America. When you look on a map, you can see the border lines of each
state. Do these border lines actually exist, or are they subjective and
imaginary? These border lines which imply 'separate' states do not
actually exist. In the same exact way, the illusionary terms which
imply separation, such as "I", "you", and "me" are just as subjective
and imaginary as the border lines of the United States.
The self is an illusion. But we must speak in terms of the illusion to
understand who or what we are talking about. The problem arises when we </span>actually
believe we are the I. When we actually believe the border lines which
bring up the illusion of separation are objective fact. If you can come
to terms with what I'm saying then you will know that you are the great
I AM. And you </span>(which doesn't exist) do not die.
</>
<>On another note there is much debate in regards to the subject of
consciousness (aka what some may refer to as soul). The question is
whether consciousness is contingent upon the functioning of the brain
or if consciousness exists independently of the brain. In other words
does consciousness exist only in the brain or does it exist inside and
outside of us (much like air or space)? Does the brain somehow trap
consciousness when we are born and give it the illusion of time etc...
To support the latter are a few NDE accounts, especially the ones who
have actually died. They claim they were still conscious, and then go
on to tell their story. I particularly find the Atheists' testimonials
interesting to say the least. Here. (http://www.near-death.com/atheists.html)
Personally I don't know if we will expand back into Universal
consciousness (if there is such a thing). I remain neutral on the
subject. I'll wait it out.<img> But one thing i'm sure of, God (which is who we really are) doesn't die.
</>
If you're looking for more on the subject of consciousness you should check this (http://66.201.42.16/viewitem.php3?id=155&catid=20&kbid=ionsikc) out. It's a very interesting read.
billyloner
26-02-2005, 14:21
thanks for the links uni151. i think i see your point of view now, thanks for explaining it...
universe will continue to expand untill all has dissolved into the elemental particles(whatever they might be),time will stop..and apparently it will be hot as hell
actually if the universe expands forever, it will reach a state where energy is equally distributed, and the temperature would approach absolute zero. no more work would be possible, and this is known as 'heat death'. however, even with an expanding universe, this is not the only possible solution, it just seems the most likely with our current (limited) knowledge of the way the universe works.
uni151,mathematically,physically and thermodynamically speaking(or to put it in other words: conceptually speaking, andfroma material/immaterial(energy) point of view) we are all part of the universe, and in a sense universe is us......
i certainly dont think that consciousness is identical in nature to hydrogen atoms, for example--of course its not,its far more complicated .It involves neurotransmitters, electric impulses, data receiving/processing/storing and a lot,lot,lot more...we are still far from understanding it
as for NDEs ill call on my previous posts;when you are dying your limbic system takes over; floods yer brain with serotonin, dopamine, endorphin, adrenaline, acetylcholine, etc.Time dilatation and the whole of the NDE is not that hard to imagine,ever tried dmt?For our consciousness death is the end.
a lot of people keep quoting famous thinkers, mainly Jung(misinterpreted a lot!) and Nietzsche...we should stop quoting and start thinking for ourselves.All of that Nietzsche had wrote..it was his personal opinion,his own view, its a good read,but still it is just a subjective view of things...not to mention philosophers that had died some 2000 yrs ago.No doubt they were extremely intelligent people and the things that they have claimed were cutting edge theories at their time,but times change,ideas evolve,our knowledge expands. Science it a natural decedent of philosophy
..as for that that we call soul,the spirit, God/Goddess, the innumerable complex processes that go on in our heads;well to avoid confusion from now i will call it....DAFFODIL(got to keep yer sense of humor)
PS VV thanx for the great book recommendations..there are a few books from I.Stewart and J.Cohen that im sure you all will enjoysci/spiritual peoplealike...here is a interesting quote(contradicting myself already!) from The Globe by Cohen/Stewart/Pratchett:
"we are the storytelling ape,and we are incredibly good at it.As soon as we are old enough to want to understand what is happening around us,we begin to live in a world of stories...thats us, Pan narrans .And what about Homo sapiens? Yes,we think that would be a very good idea..."
<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><O:P></O:P>Edited by: Alfa
it will reach a state where energy is equally distributed, and the temperature would approach absolute zero.
thats what they claim,the thing with "the hot as hell" and all was my conclusion;enthropy is bound to increase with temp.And at the 0 K its equall zero(ok for purecrystals anyway;3rd princ. of thermo.).Those who advocate this theory claim that at that point the laws of thermodynamics will be no longer appliable...im not bying that;if we are moving from high E-states to the low ones energy cant cease to exsist it will just have to be transformed somehow.Every thing will be in a gassous state(highest enthropy levels),the most logical (to me)way to irrevercibly"waste" energy is to radiate heat.....then again is it keeps expanding it will have to cool down anyway....on the other hand the principles of thermo may not be appliable.And there are always queations about the borders of the universe,etc...
all in all i definitely agree with your last conclusion,we are far from figuring out how the universe workshttp://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif
They probably want to say that the rate of the expansion of the universe will exceed the rate of heat generation,so all work will be spent on a kind of a adiabatic expansion,and the universe will cool down to 0k….err right???<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
……my girlfriend is giving me some funny looks,id better get offline now…later people
Edited by: daeron
Stingray_313
26-02-2005, 17:16
I think that when we die, only our existance dies. Like, we are no
longer able to move, act, feel, or live, but our legacy lives on.
Friends know who you are, family knows who you are, people that hate
you know who you are, they are all part of the web that includes you.
So naturally, when you die, they still speak, think, remember, tell
others about you and what you did. So you still exist in the idea that
you are still a reminant of existance, but you no longer exist in the
sence that you are alive. Im sure that made NO sence. Its difficult to
explain in words, but the entire idea is perfectly clear in my own
head.
Dont you hate when that happens???
P!MPJU!C3
26-02-2005, 20:30
Its true...I know people like u and I how have seen it happen.
Dont turn ur back. Dont 4sake the 1 true lord. 4 if u do..u will chew off ur tongue due 2 pain in presence of the antichrist seperated from the lord.
Do not think religion is outdated. Its coming to its cilmax.
P!MPJU!C3
Hyperreal
27-02-2005, 00:10
The number 6,as you conveniently have stated cant be created nor destroyed.Thats because it is a imaginary tool,alone it has no meaning at all,it is undefined;but if you say 6 g of coke,6 philosophers,or -6degC ->suddenly it has a meaning,of quantity,of 6 funny dressed old men,of lack of heat...Another example is the imaginary number i(sqrt of -1).They exist not in reality but in our minds,because we are the first beings on earth that have the ability of abstract thinking...and the urge to explain things.
Hmmm... Well, I'm not a materialist - more of a neo-Platonist, so I don't agree with your view on things. That, however, is a very different debate.
you of all people should understand this,we all know how the slightest chemical imbalances causedifferent feelings,different patterns of thought,open different doors of perception,momentarily changing our"souls". Au contraire, what we see with chemical imbalances is that no matter how fucked up a state you go to, the stability of the intrinsic mindis absolutely unshakable.
uni151,mathematically,physically and thermodynamically speaking(or to put it in other words: conceptually speaking, andfroma material/immaterial(energy) point of view) we are all part of the universe, and in a sense universe is us......
True.
i certainly dont think that consciousness is identical in nature to hydrogen atoms, for example--of course its not,its far more complicated .It involves neurotransmitters, electric impulses, data receiving/processing/storing and a lot,lot,lot more...we are still far from understanding it.
The modern scientific paradigm is that consciousness arises from the material world. But I would have to ask, how can any purely material process ever give rise to consciousness? How can a material object produce an immaterial ...-for lack of a better word- substance?
I would have to disagree with the modern assumption that consciousness only exists and is created within the brain. I will posit that consciousness is always present. It is outside of our brains and inside. It is all around us just as space exists within the immaterial and material. Even further I will claim that our nervous system does not create consciousness, but rather it amplifies consciousness which, in turn, increases the richness and quality of the experience. With this view consciousness is in everything, yet it becomes altered and varied depending on the being possesing it. For instance, a cat's experience is totally different than a humans experience due to the biological make-up.. Even further still am leaning towards the belief that when we die our consciousness expands back into the Universe. Ultimate consciousness may be more intense than our experience now, or it could be minute, but it still is there.
We are also stuck with a problem. <>How can we produce a test on something as immaterial as consciousness? How can we prove the existence of consciousness in everything? We are stuck with personal experiences from people that have died... Not even so much the people that almost died, but the ones who were actually clinically brain dead and came back to tell their story.
I have also had a personal experience which coincides with this belief. Maybe I'll share it at a later time.
as for NDEs ill call on my previous posts;when you are dying your limbic system takes over; floods yer brain with serotonin, dopamine, endorphin, adrenaline, acetylcholine, etc.Time dilatation and the whole of the NDE is not that hard to imagine,ever tried dmt?For our consciousness death is the end.
I agree in that our consciousness will end, as in our memories will be wiped out. But I believe there will still be consciousness.
a lot of people keep quoting famous thinkers, mainly Jung(misinterpreted a lot!) and Nietzsche...we should stop quoting and start thinking for ourselves.All of that Nietzsche had wrote..it was his personal opinion,his own view, its a good read,but still it is just a subjective view of things...not to mention philosophers that had died some 2000 yrs ago.No doubt they were extremely intelligent people and the things that they have claimed were cutting edge theories at their time,but times change,ideas evolve,our knowledge expands. Science it a natural decedent of philosophy
Again I agree to a certain extent... Science will never find all the answers to the mysteries of life. Again, how can science collect data on an immaterial substance? Short answer, it can't, so where do we go from there?
..as for that that we call soul,the spirit, God/Goddess, the innumerable complex processes that go on in our heads;well to avoid confusion from now i will call it....DAFFODIL(got to keep yer sense of humor)
Agreed, Daffodil it is! lol
I'll leave you'll with a quote from Einstein.
"A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is to survive. Albert Einstein
Edited by: Alfa
billyloner
27-02-2005, 14:23
daeron - hot items will radiate their heat to cooler items, until the heat is evenly spread throughout the universe. it wont actually reach absolute zero as this is physically impossible (how can something radiate ALL its heat energy to another thing without receiving some back as its temperature falls below that of the other item) but as the universe expands more and more, the energy will become more spread out, and the temperature will decrease.
i certainly dont think that consciousness is identical in nature to hydrogen atoms, for example--of course its not,its far more complicated .It involves neurotransmitters, electric impulses, data receiving/processing/storing and a lot,lot,lot more...we are still far from understanding it
when i said identical in nature, i simply meant that it consists of protons, electrons or a variety of other subatomic particles. which i do not believe.
How can a material object produce an immaterial
think of the case of a magnet producing a magnetic field about itself. this is how i think of the 'soul' (or daffodil!) - some sort of non-physical description of the physical brain. this does not rule out the possibility of a universal consciousness, nor does it confirm it. but im of the opinion that when the brain dies, so does the daffodil.
by the way uni151 - if its not too much to ask, could you share your experience with us? i understamd if you dont feel comfortable enough to do so yet, i mean you dont know us really, so its up to you. i would be interested though.
hippie_lain
27-02-2005, 15:11
Wow i thought there would be more christians out there....maby this is the wrong forums lol. I beleive we will go to heven or hell. Ive seen to many miricles to completely turn my back on the lord, my personal savior, jesus christ. The things that happen in life may be fucked up and seem like theres no god, but hes there watching and waiting for a chance for you to listen to him. The lord is out there and is REAL, i cant convince myself otherwise even though i may have tried. My life will devoted to him someday and that day i will have peace, real peace. Just my thoughts.
PS: How could you live without believing in the afterlife. If this world was the end i would go insane.
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daeron - hot items will radiate their heat to cooler items, until the heat is evenly spread throughout the universe. it wont actually reach absolute zero as this is physically impossible ....
I wanted to point out to the possible problems in this theory;the universe is a closed macroscopic system.The only way the universe can approach "total chaos" is that if its expanding more quickly than is it radiating heat(its called cooling via adiabatic expansion).Since the heat produced by matter desintregration will always be larger than the heat that can be absorbed by other particles( if we are talking about "advanced" enthropy states),so the excess energy can be used to:
-form new particles,thus decreasing chaos->this means there will be no end of the universe it will just slowly expand and "selfregenerate" forever.
-overheat the universe
-accelerate th expansion,thus cooling itself.
of course there is always the question of antimatter,which complicates the things much,much more.
as for the nature of daffodil,I consider it as a result of all of the brain alchemy;the result of the countless electromag. nerve inpulces...and youre forgetting the dualistic theory and the famous E=mc2 connection;ill bet if we had measured the electromag. radiation of the brain instead of the body as a whole,we would find some interesting thingies....
but i agree with you,since daffodil derives from your brain activity,when brain goes,well nice knowin ya daffodil,we had some good times<?:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /> http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif</v:stroke></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:f></v:ulas></v:path><o:lock aspectratio="t" v:ext="edit"></o:lock></v:shape>
uni151 please post your experience; i had a NDE but i was very young,i was drowning and all that i remember is that it was rather enjoyable...it was probably my first high ever
as forhippie_lain andP!MPJU!C3 you have the right for your view of things,as do I.P!MPJU!C3 i really dont respond well at allto all that "u gonna burn in hell infidel,4 the 1 true lord will smite thee.." stuff,what is I was a muslim or a buddistor if my god is SpongeBob Squarepants?Bee fuckn tolerant!
and hippie_lain I believe in ME=MY DAFFODIL;I have seen real rivers of blood and fuckn fiery skies;and there is no gods work in that.People can create hell/heaven that would make grown demons/angels cry out in envy and misery!Forget the afterlife enjoy the life you have,there is no worse thing than to realize at your deathbed that youve wasted your oneandonly,precious life!!!(note thats 3 exclamation marks)
I'm not sure how I should begin this story, but I guess any place is as
good as any other. About a year ago I remember being in my room,
browsing the internet. I remember being bored as well as not having any
desire to do anything. I then decided to lay on my bed out of sheer
boredom.
So there I was, lying on my bed. Face up towards the ceiling, head
resting on my pillow, and my hands sprawled out to my sides. I then
began (as always) thinking about life, existence, and whatever this is.
After awhile of being indulged in thought I suddenly became aware of
the voice inside my head. (You have one as well, can you hear?</span> it?) I
noticed that it was always talking in some form or another, whether I
was reading or thinking or whatever, it was always there. So I tried to
silence it. I wanted to see how long I could keep this inner voice
silent. (Yeah, I'm wierd like that)
I was soon suprised at how hard it was to keep this inner voice silent.
It is rather difficult. Give it a try sometime. I bet you couldn't last
five minutes without saying a word or conjuring up a thought.
So anyway, after many failed attempts to silence my thinking process I
became aggravated, which, in turn, spawned a deep motivation to try
even harder. I gave it my all and began to concentrate on nothing. (lol)
My hands and feet began to tremble ever so slightly while trying to focuse on
nothing. Eyes wide open, noticing nothing. I don't remember how long I
was in-tuned to nothing but then, it happened.
*I'd just like to say that the experience is indescribable, meaning, I
cannot help you understand exactly what happened by describing the
experience, one must experience it for oneself.
I guess I will first reference the experience to something that we all can relate to.
Have you ever had a lucid dream? Where you are dreaming and then
suddenly you become aware that you are dreaming. It's a pretty cool
thing to happen, though it doesn't happen often.
The experience I had was exactly like having a lucid dream, except, I
was awake! More awake then I have ever been. It was as if I was
dreaming - in what we call the real world - and suddenly realized that
I was dreaming. *This explanation seriously lacks the full spectrum of
the event*
I was totally at peace, totally relaxed, and surrounded by a deep sense of knowing that there isn't anything to fear. Ever.
I then got out of bed and looked into the mirror. I stared at myself in
the mirror and somehow realized that it wasn't me in the mirror. I
mean, yes, it was me, but it wasn't.... It's as if God (what I call
the me that wasn't but was) realized that He was dreaming. I laughed,
He laughed, We laughed. (?) God(the name I give to that something,
that something that wasn't me, yet was) then began making faces in the
mirror, smiling, frowning, silly faces, He/It/I just began playing in
the mirror. Something else was in control.....Yet, it was still me....
There wasn't any fear, everything felt normal. I felt like a kid again, so free.... I never felt so alive in my entire life.
You see at that moment I realized that life is a game. Everything that
happens to you isn't real in the sense that it actually means
something. </font>Our whole body is like a game suit/mask and the world is our play ground. We
use it to communicate, taste, hear, smell, see, and generally
experience the world. We hold memories and remember events. We have
facial expressions which symbolize our emotions. But underneath all
these features, underneath all the events and happenings exists
consciousness, in which without we could not have any experience at
all. Consciousnees is what exists behind all the game suits/masks. You
possess 'it' I possess 'it'. Every living thing possesses 'it'. It is
what I call God.
You and I are really the same one (hence my name uNi (you and i), uni =
ONE) underneath it all playing this cosmic game with each other.
Just like Einstein said, it's an optical delusion of consciousness in
that we feel we are separate entities. What happens when we start to
believe we are separate, well we become egotistical. Anxiety - which is
a prevalent state throughout Western culture which puts emphasis on
individualism- forms and we fear each other escpecially in social
situations. The truth of the matter is that we are the same
'thing' experiencing the Universe through a myriad of different ways.
You should feel just as comfortable with everyone around you as you
feel when your're by yourself. But we don't because we think we are an
I/ME separate from everyone else..But you are not an I/ME/ you are the
Universe.
</font>
A baby before five months of age cannot recognize itself in the mirror.
It thinks there's another baby 'out there'. After the five month period
one recognizes itself in the mirror. One sees a 'me/I' in the mirror.
I've gone one step further, I do not see 'me' in the mirror any longer,
I see God. *Please do not take me too literally when I say I do not see
'me', I see God. It's not like a see a bright ball of light (entailing
God) in the mirror or anything*
* (side note) I know this all sounds crazy. (to say the least) I can
picture someone reading this and saying, "Man, this guy is psycho, he's
really 'lost it'." lol I know this because if someone would of said
what I just have said here, to me, before my experience, I would think
the person to be psycho as well. But I'm telling you, there is more
'out there/in here' then meets the eye. We are simply oblivious to
it.(end note)*
But anyway, at that moment I realized that there is God, 'I/you/we' are
fake, 'I/you/we' are imposters. We (there really isn't a we) are God
pretending to be "_____" <---- Insert name here.
Try to think of a good reason to believe that there is an 'I', a
persisting self. Can you find a reason to consider yourself separate
from the rest of the universe, some closed system traped within a
clockwork universe, dodging the cogs as best you can? You see we are
this clockwork universe. What we're dodging is just you! The self is an
illusion, a myth, that we grow up assuming and never think to question.
Or if we do, we think we're on the road to madness and back off.
And here we all are, the Universe pretending not to be the Universe.
I've heard similar experiences reported by people who have a problem
with part of their brain - the part of the brain that is responsible
for separating out objects. They can't tell apart the chair from the
floor from their arm, though they can describe the whole picture. They
just don't make the distinction.
And what about thost people ( I forget the name of the disease) who
can't function normally but can replay a whole symphony after only
hearing it once. This tells me that our brains are simply tools which
alter and find new ways to experience the world via consciousness. And
the state of experience is altered depending on the quality of the
brain. The brain is a sort of tool used to experience the Universe in a
certain way.
Other species experience the Universe in ways that we know nothing
about. Most snakes have sensitive organs that can interpret and 'see'
heat emitted by the prey. Bees see in an ultra violet range and are
sensitive to polarized light. Their reality is totally unkown to us yet
still exists via consciousness.
Of course their consciousness might not be as rich as our own
experience but I believe they are conscious in some form or another.
Even plants are sensitive to light, temparature, atmospheric chemistry
etc. Even further some single celled organisms are sensitive to light,
physical vibration etcetra. Who's to say they don't have some form of
awareness?
In this view there is nowhere we can draw the line between entities who
are conscious and those who are not. There are simply varying degrees
of sentience, however slight it might be. Further, this means </font>consciousness
does not arise from a particular arrange of nerve cells or the
processes or from anything physical; it is always present. And like I
said earlier, this would mean that the certain arrangements and
processes of the nervous system simply proliferate consciousness.
The person and memories we hold at this very moment will be wiped out
when we die. But we do not dissapear into nothingness for nothing
doesn't exist. </font>When we die, we simply become something else.</font>
</font>
</font>
Edited by: uNi151
call me boring buti think it's a binary concept,either you'realive or you're dead...in my opinion, each instance of human consciousness is unique withit's own place in time and space, sittingparallel with,but completely independent of, anyone else's existence
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gifi'm sure you wouldn't mind being dead
call me boring buti think it's a
binary concept,either you'realive or you're dead...in
my opinion, each instance of human consciousness is unique
withit's own place in time and space, sittingparallel
with,but completely independent of, anyone else's existence</span>
I agree to a certain extent.
http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gifi'm sure you wouldn't mind being dead
This is what is being discussed. What is death? What does it mean to be dead?
Can
death be equated with non-existence (nothing)? I do not believe
something can become nothing in the same way that I do not believe that
something can come from nothing. There is only something and always
will be something. To put it simply...</span>
William_Again
03-03-2005, 23:31
I have no clue, while I personally believe that when we die we fade
into nothingness, but I do hope something does happen cause life seems
a bit meaningless without some sort of a grand resolution something we
are striving towards that can't be obtained in a mortal world. I can't
believe how many times I have been on dxm and thought of this...there
is only one way we will find out and eventually we will all find out...
Here's a favorite quote of mine from the Baghavad Gita:
</font>"All that lives lives forever. Only the shell, the
perishable passes away. The spirit is </font>without end. Eternal. Deathless."</font>
As everything we see and touch is processed by the brain, isn't the brain our own world ? So if you can realize this you can break free from everrthing, i find it impossible to comprehend that when we die it's the end. I think it is impossible for anyone to be able to understand the word 'nothing' as no-one has ever experienced it.
billyloner
06-03-2005, 02:57
The only way the universe can approach "total chaos" is that if its expanding more quickly than is it radiating heat
the universe does not radiate heat, it is all contained within. there is a fixed amount of energy contained within the universe (conservation of energy states this) and so as the universe expands, it will cool. the energy does not go anywhere, it remains. think of it as the opposite of the big bang - shortly after the big bang, the universe was so tiny that the amount of energy contained within it caused it to be at such a temperature that matter as we know it did not exist. and as it expanded, it cooled. this will continue to happen so long as the universe continues to expand.
How could you live without believing in the afterlife. If this world was the end i would go insane.
how can you live if you believe in an afterlife full of beauty and harmony?! what then is the point of life? just to torture us before we are allowed into the afterlife?
thanks for posting your story uni151, appreciate it.im a touch drunk at the moment though and on my way to bed but ill read it tomorrow.
mass can be "destroyed Mass can not be destroyed, it can only be transformed. Something can not become nothing. Nature harbours no dead end, no linear concepts, only human thoughts do.
Thermodynamics doesn't apply to the soul, because it is neither mass nor energy. I doubt that. The fact that you can't directly see or recognise it's physical presense, does not mean it is not there. A snale does not see light, still it has a color. We tend to reason within our limited number of senses. The soul may have physical qualities in other frequencies then normal percepted. What does non-physical mean? Where is that?
I do not know what happens when I get there, but I have had many clues that the human soul, astral body, psyche or whatever, can act without the human body and is certainly not limited to it. Anyway, let's leave or mark behind. http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif
yeah,yeah,yeah...
Alpha i was tryng to speak in a more down to earth manner,hence the "s,mass transformation is a far more complicated process than it sounds....and may i ask what are thesemany clues that youve had?
Billyloner- I meant to say that particles radiate heat,of course..Now dont make me quote myself,i thought i was clear in the previous posts(shit,is my english that bad???http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif).. i wanted to point out that that the only way to keep coolingthe universeand at the same time to keep increasing the entropy is adiabatic expansion.Simple expansion just wont cut it.There would be excess heat/energy,and it will be either spent to heat the universe or it will be spent to form new particles(eg. nuclear fusion),thus decreasing the entropy/chaos.Only way to achieve the max. entropy/chaos is to spend all energy(ok,almost all E,thats way the temp. will be abit above0K)into the work of universe expansion.Although this is my own conclusion,i doubt that its wrong;I have applied the same principles and laws that the expansion theory creators used.
uni151 -interesting story...yknow your story sounds a lot like a japanese meditation induced high;the process is astoundingly simmilar,they also try to eliminate all thoughts and induce a mild lsd like high.And your experience sounded tome like a classic ego loss trip.What do you think?
billyloner
06-03-2005, 17:04
very interesting uni151. much appreciated. have you read this (http://www.earthportals.com/hologram.html)? it is about an article written in scientific american magazine a few years ago.
daeron - the rest of your post did indeed read as though the universe does not radiate heat, but i got confused by the first few lines. sorry for the misunderstanding!
Death is exactly like dreaming. Dreaming is your soul returning "home" while its organism (us) is refueling.Ever heard of your "third eye"? It is literally in our head and has the exact same qualities and abilities ouractual eyes do. It is the SAME cosmic energy flowing through us all. Im not gonna type more bc youse'll get bored. If interested, look up QUANTUM PHYSICS and realize religion makes a lot of fuckin money.
Hyperreal
07-03-2005, 12:54
What you are talking about is not quantum physics at all; it's a hotch-potch of Hinduism, New Age mysticism, animism and simple falsehood.
Iggypoop
08-03-2005, 00:03
our brain is a bio-computer not much different from animals, do you believe they have souls? when we die we are wormfood nothing more, we are recycled in the natural way and we eventually become reincarnated as soil lol, or become a bit of a worm or something. to believe that our conciousness will still be around is just a bit ludicrous for me, but thats sciencemindedness for ya! (and i know i dont think mindedness is a real word either)
I completely agree. but quantum physics is ... here: look at a wall. how much space is between you and the wall? the answer should be none. regular physics, science explains the smallest things of matter to be the protons, neutrons, and electrons of atoms. Quantum physics goes beyond that. smaller. to the point where EVERYTHING is energy. The way we get the different elements etc. is because each lets say proton has energy inside it jumpin around. not just jumpin around tho, jumpin in a certain code, makes things differ from eachother. The air has elements right? energy. the wall has elements- energy. us- energy. physical matter is only how our 5 senses percieve the world. if we had different kinds of eyes, wed see thing differently. As for that religious stuff, they are on the right track, they just never think deeper than what they are told.
as for animals and spirits? it is true that our brains effect our spirit. our brains allow our spirit to communicate. animals have the exact same spirit as us, minus the intelligence the human brain has. i believe plants have spirit too. did u know trees can communicate? idk im still trying to figure this all out myself but i think this whole universe is what god is. not some bearded dude with a wand. god is a term used to describe the energy within us all. personality comes from where though?????????
Iggypoop
08-03-2005, 00:28
sorry nope, deluded.
(but i dont want to step on anyones beliefs, its just my opinion)Edited by: iggypoop2
idk wat the fuck i believe, but i should add something interesting and true: when people die, there memories stay in their bodies. not just the brain, every cell. Ever look into people who have received like a heart transplant and woke up craving a food they never liked? or having dreams about people they dont know? then because of interest going to the donors family and finding out what kind of food this person liked and meeting people u had dreamed about. Shit like that would fuck with my head more than deja vu or any fucking drug i dont remem ber but look into it http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gifbtw wat r some theories on DEJA VU? stories?
frankiegirl
08-03-2005, 01:07
when you die , your spirit lives , you either go to heaven or hell,, yes it is true, you can either live in dark, painful, nothing, or have GOD and everlasting life
a "soul" is just a made up word, one used by many religions to make the idea of a after life more belivable. What makes you think people have a soul? Everything you are is your brain, people are nothing but a complex organism. And anything you say cannot prove their is a spirit or energy that lives on past death. Edited by: RoboCop
Hyperreal
08-03-2005, 02:41
The words for 'soul' and 'mind' are the same in both Latin ('anima') and Greek ('psyche'). The distinction between mind and soul (or, for that matter, spirit or consciousness or whatever other names you choose to call it) is a misleading one. I think what you're talking about, RoboCop, is the animist view of 'spirit' as some sort of shiny energy or winged being that is inside us. That is indeed a foolish concept. Your soul isn't inside you - it is you.
How do we know the soulexists? BECAUSE IT'S SO FUCKING OBVIOUS! Denying that you have consciouness is simply ridiculous. You know you have consciousness, because otherwise you couldn't 'know' anything. Even the fact of doubting that you have a consciousness presupposes that you do, because otherwise you'd be incapable of mental functions like 'doubt'
frankiegirl
08-03-2005, 03:11
ok whatever you say about there is not such thing as a spirit, just as the other guy said your spirit is who you are, your unique self. you must be one of those that will be going to that dark place , enjoy the rest of your entire life being nothing and knowing you are going nowhere, living for nothing
ROBOCOP u completely contradicted urself in your anti-spirit post and your signature about relating to the dead ... explain
In my last post I meant to say soul, sorry not spirit. I fixed it.
"you must be one of those that will be going to that dark place , enjoy the rest of your entire life being nothing and knowing you are going nowhere, living for nothing"
I just find afterlife, difficult to swallow is all. If you look at life in the way a do through biologist's point of view it is hard to believe. I laugh at those religious nuts telling me if I do not have faith I will go to a place like you said "a dark place". If there is afterlife than there is afterlife I will be plesantly surprised. Just because you believe something does not make it true. I tried to believe in religion I really did.
"ROBOCOP u completely contradicted urself in your anti-spirit post and your signature about relating to the dead ... explain"
My signature has nothing to do with a soul or religion it has to do with the drug itself. You just analyzed it to much. Edited by: RoboCop
yer right about an afterlife being false. heaven is also false. u share the same views on some things as me i think---i guess u gotta think about TIMELESSNESS. really really think about it. time actually does NOT exist. It is true(IF UVE SEEN PLANET OF THE APES) if u travel at the speed of light, u would not "age" (its not just a crazy science fiction thing) we dont age either. Dont say "what?" , think. our cells are constantly constantly reproducing, not just yer hair and skin, every single friggin cell. we are completly renewed every however long (i dont have the book i read with the actual #s) the reason we "age" is because it is inevitable that our DNA structure gets... god wats the word, altered by evrything it associates with. your diet, the air u breathe, illness, injuries, diseases, what ever else it listed. there is actually a numbered rate of how much the average body's dna is altered in a year.I am talking about a book written by some science guy its called "ageless body, timeless mind" very interesting. i think after that book i had an epiphany . whatever there may be nothin out there but the niverse is pretty fuckin amazinghttp://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley33.gif
billyloner
08-03-2005, 18:12
our cells are constantly constantly reproducing, not just yer hair and skin, every single friggin cell
thats not true. our brain cells do not do that; if our brain cells get damaged or die, then that is it.
The words for 'soul' and 'mind' are the same in both Latin ('anima') and Greek ('psyche'). The distinction between mind and soul (or, for that matter, spirit or consciousness or whatever other names you choose to call it) is a misleading one.
that is what i mean whenever i use the term 'soul'. it is simply the part of you that is you. the part that enjoys techno music or chilling out in the park. the part you have to take care of more than any other, simply because it is the most difficult to take care of. whether this is nothing more than a bunch of electrical impulses firing backwards and forwards in your brain, or whether it is something created by these impulses but something more, i dont know. i do know it exists though.
the brain never gets old, it gets wiser and wiser this is from some web site also:The hippocampus (learning and processing new memories), however, makes new neurons at a steady, vigorous pace. Perhaps the hippocampus (located roughly behind your ear) needs constant renewal to keep up with new information. The hippocampus of rats and mice cranks out 1,000 to 3,000 new neurons per day — a substantial fraction of each animal’s lifetime output. Younger animals make more new neurons than older ones do.
To answer your question, "in an adult, it takes about 30 days for a new-born cell to become a functioning neuron," says Fred Gage (http://www.salk.edu/faculty/gage.html), genetics professor at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies. "What is remarkable, though, is that it happens at all."
Also, the number of new neurons that are born and survive depends on what we do. Exercise and a full, meaningful life increase cell count. Stress and anxiety decease the numbers, says Gage.
Katiii,no offence but you are pulling too much stuff outta the concept;please do some more reading..
yeah i heard of those rat experiments,its not at all that simple;and as i remember the conclusion was that the POSSIBLE production of new neurons may impair,not improve the processing of new info!The scientists studied the neuron production of normal rats and of those who had some essential proteins missing...it was a research about memory storing/processing,not about the aging of brain or neuron production...and still the inevitable conclusionis that the rate of the (possible) production of neurons cant even be compared to the rate of neuron destruction.
on the other hand in vitro neuron production from stems is a different story...
First, are you stating that neurons cannot reproduce? Second,I think weve both trailed off, how can we age if time does not exist? how can time not exist? join me on a journey of discovery. just hear me out, there is not much "fact" about whats really out there, across the universe. (pretty song)http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley9.gif .First of all, remember when copernicus came up with the heliocentric model ofour galaxy? Alot of people didnt believe it, theywere so completely ignorant to what wasout there. people were born into these, rumorous (?) assumptions for generations.The world should be ready for a revolution, an eraof realization.People tend to think thatthere is an objective world independent of the observer, and our bodies are an aspect of this world. People tend to think human awareness can be&nbs p; completely explained as a product of biochemistry. They think we are like physical machines that have learned to think. We think our bodies are composed of matter seperated from other clumps of matter. theres more but i dont no how many people read this far... ive also been thinking a lot about people and fashion sense, make-up, etc. ...I love large crowdshttp://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif
badger2565
09-03-2005, 03:20
OOOPPPSSS.... Wrong forum, way to heavy for me.
Keep on keepin on !http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gifhttp://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif
I am not stating that neurons cant reproduce,nor am I saying the opposite.You got to keep a skeptical point of view in order to form a decent opinion,especially when new discoveries are concerned.Never jump to conclusions,analyze everything.
As for daffodil and the similar stuff,personally I do think that our conscience derives from a far more complicate process than simple biochemistry...people accept the idea of soul,spirit or whatever because its easier to comprehend and accept;to accept the biochem/electroimpulce/to be discovered../ theory about ourselves means that you accept the fact we are animals like any other.The only thing that makes us uniqee is our ability of abstract and constructivethinking.
Most of the spiritual people,when asked to talk about some arguments conserning the soul,and stuff just say "but i cant really explain it,its just what i feel deep iside..";and thats nonsence..what we feel is our egos coliding with the knowledge of our transience.We were ment to onlyreproduce(and are still),but we evolved to apes with "supercomputers",and what do we do?we bust eachother heads with them(metaphorically and literally speaking).
im kinda getting tired of repeating myself,if youre interested look into my previous posts in this thread
billyloner
09-03-2005, 16:15
well i guess fred gage has proved me wrong. http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley17.gif
however you still havent really given any reason why time does not exist. just said that people are unaware of what is really out there. and related now to copernicus' era, and the heliocentric model of the universe. the reason the heliocentric model was believed as it was, is because back then, there was no such thing as the 'scientific method' - people would simply make up theories, decide they were true, and have no need to prove them so by experiment as it was already so 'obvious' they were true. i like to think that these days we rely on something a bit more concrete.
time can be shown to exist by considering a few things. the first one, in relation to your previous post, is how can things change without time? the entire concept of change is one that includes the concept of time. change is the act of one thing becoming another over time. without time, change would not exist. as the reproduction of cells is simply a chemical change carried out by the body, this could not exist without time. the body would simply exist in all possible states, embryo, child, adult, corpse all 'at once' (this term is very dubious as 'at once' can not exist without time).
in away i kinda agree with her...time doesnt exist.Everything is just a series of moments.Time is just our perception of the above mentioned change of things.Time is just another abstract tool,its not real it is just a concept that describes the perseption of change.Only living things can grasp this concept,or maybe just humans can..
This maybe is the basis of the theory of the multiple dimension universe..err thingies( http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gifi just woke up,so my mind isnt as sharp as it should be).Thats why you cant travel though time,thats why every decision creates a new universe,and thats why you maybe can go "back in time" by means of interdimensional travel,ok getting lost here...,...yawn
katiii is this what you were talking about,or does anybody agree with this point of view?
its exactly it, but it is hard to grasp. Linear time is only what we make it. There is a meditation exercise that might boggle your mind if you do it right. First of all, you need to do the basic methods of relaxing in a quiet place before you meditate, breathing, relaxing, breathing, etc. now, there needs to be a clock with a second hand within reading view. Close your eyes. Focus on timelessness. Fully try to comprehend that time really does not exist. Give this complete concentration. Once youve grasped it, open your eyes. look at the second hand. it will literally freeze for (depending on how much you actually know how to meditate) about 3 seconds, then will of course continue back. This goes into Einsteins theory of relativity, which he summed up simply like, 10 minutes of difficult calculus can seem like 10 hours, while 10 minutes with a beautiful woman can seem like 10 seconds (something like that) and it is said that we could never travel BACK in time, but if , IF there was a way for a human to travel the speed of light, they could come back to earth after however many years, unaged, but now thats not actually travelling in time. Time repeats in loops. Sometimes i know ive been here before. Sometimes i find myself (stoned) staring in the mirror and seeing myself older. if i lose something, i imagine i am remembering where i found it, and i think some people are more in touch with their "third eye" than others. if u dont know what im talking about, it pretty damn interesting. try this site:http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gifhttp://www.crystalinks.comthen go to the alphabetical list of all files. youse in here will really like this site i found it when i needed to know more, i was fascinated b/c my boyfriend would have deja vu so often and he was SCARED. i know it doesnt scare me. but once he knew what a lady in a grocery store was a bout to say, and she said it. What the fuck are we???http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif
billyloner
10-03-2005, 15:12
oh i agree that time might simply be our percetion of things. like, every when of the universe exists. and we just observe it through a tiny window that allows us to 'feel' time as something when it isnt actually like that. however i think you are misunderstanding my point. how can time be our perception of the "change of things" when change relies on time. you cannt have change without time. change would not exist. think about what change is, and you will see what i mean. how can something change if every single possibility of it exists? imagine a flower. we perceive that the flower changes from being closed, to being open, over a period of time. if time does not exist, the flower does not change. it does not open - it simply is open and closed and all states between. change does not occur without time.
i think youre getting a bit confused here,billyloner.You see things dont change because of the time;they change because of the energy and material balances,chemistry,physics and thermodynamic;even entropy and gibbs energy;but not because of the time.Time is not a cause it is a DESCRIPTION.We use it to describe the rate of change in life as in science.
Everything can be observed as a sequence of moments,we only follow a linear path through these moments,and we need time to describe them,and to connect them.The univerce is 3D not 4D,time is a pseudo-dimension,an imaginary tool,an abstract concept.
Change, succession, and time are the results of the minds inability to grasp things all at once. http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif
Brilliant discussion so far but has anyone considered the thought that we might already be dead. Like the Cathars, for instance.
billyloner
10-03-2005, 23:46
no i think its you who is getting confused here. obviously im not very good at explaining myself. but ask yourself what change is. i know that things do not change because of time. time does not cause anything. every single point you have made completely relies on the presence of time. every single one. a "sequence of moments" would not occur if there was no such thing of time. all moments would be one (im ignoring here the fact that as far as im aware, a 'moment' is a description of time). we would not follow a linear path through any moments because we cannot follow a path if time does not exist. motion does not exist witthout time. an object would be in every location along its path, it would not move between them.i still dont know if im making myself very clear. the main thing im trying to get across is that the thing we call 'change' cannot occur without time. not that one specific act of change is caused by time.
i think katiii seems to have grasped what im trying to say. there are many theories that say that everywhen exists (though you cant really ay "at once" if time does not exist). and i guess that if this were true time would simply be our perception of the universe. a construct of our mind. a result of our inability to perceive all things.
but there are other theories about time. and the thing of it is, no one really knows what time is. some people say it is nothing more than another dimension, like the three 'regular' dimensions of space, and it just happens that we observe it differently. other people say time ismuch more complicated. in fact, im sure ive heard one guy claim (using string theory)that there is more than one dimension of time.
maybe time is a loop? a continuous looping. i must add, what about when nothing exists? if there is nothing to change, is time ocuring or is it paused? just like if a tree falls when no ones around does ne1 hear it? AS for if were all dead, were organisms and very much alive, our spirit never dies. recycles into other people. as for those who dont belive in reincarnation, think about this: SPIRITS CANNOT REPRODUCE, ORGANISMS CAN. If nething SAUVAGE, this is all a dream. that i really think.
good morning Kat3i,Billyloner everyone else
You know what Billyloner,i think that you are confused as am I as is Katiii as is everyone else considering this problem.There is no way that we can prove either of our view points;we have a very small amount of data regarding time,and every (coherent)theory is as good as the next.Personally i believe that time is-but is it a real or an abstract consept i dunno.The reason i stated that time doesnt exist (besides for the sake of the argument,that ishttp://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif) isbecause we have no real physical evidences to rely on.
You claim that sequence of moments cannot occur without time.Now I ask you how does time cause this sequence,how does it produce thechange?I have thought about this very hard,and had come up with no answer.
So my conclusion(temporary one,of course) is that time isnt real.Its an abstract concept used to describe what really causes the change and to connect different stages in the changing process.Dead(better word is "un-alive") things dont need time,and although i love animals very much I think they dont need it either.The only ones who feel the urge to operate in time,in past/present/future is us,dumb apes with computers.I think it is very much like my daffodil conclusion,we take a great number of processeswe can barely grasp andgive it a simple name.
I will leave you with a nice thought experiment(which appeared to me in a state of DMT caused trancehttp://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif):
Imagine an infinite 3D grid where every single space is a certain moment of the universe,and is sourounded with other very similar moments(the difference is infinitely small,but exists).Now connect them in a inumerable different ways.What do you get-the theory of probability and the theory of multidimensional universe.Also you can manipulate the grid,twist it,cut it,etc.See what else you can come up with.
Now does time exist in this experiment?Is it the force that causes the changes/succecions of moments?
We have been trying to describe these forces for a long time,and we have descibed a lot of them.We use time only to express the rate of change and the way of change "during time".And of course humans use it to function.So is time an imaginary tool,very much like the number i?Edited by: daeron
Katiii I never said that spirits can reproduce. This was all thought out nearly a thousand years ago. So logically and convincingly that the church of Rome had to brutally exterminate the belief, but only after a great deal of trouble.
Do some research on the Albigensian Heresay and get into Cathartic thought if you want to be really freaked out!
http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/albi.htm
is a good short intro.
The reason why Catharism was so convincing at the time was that it seemed self evident that life in the (supposedly) physical world was so hard that it must, in fact, be hell. I guess that dosn't hold as much water now that life in general is easier but I still think it is a very elegant way of looking at things.
billyloner
11-03-2005, 14:26
You claim that sequence of moments cannot occur without time.Now I ask you how does time cause this sequence,how does it produce thechange?I have thought about this very hard,and had come up with no answer.
i think i see now. time does not actually cause any of these events to happen, that is not what i mean. however think about what you really mean when you say, for example, "object A changes into object B". what we really mean is "object A changes into object B over time", its just that everyone automatically knows what we mean by change, without even thinking about it. the change from state A to state B will occur over a period of time dependant on the process that is taking place. the process itself does not require time, or depend on time to occur. however without time, there is no change - the object will be in state A and state B and all states in between 'at once'. i find it a bit easier to think about it in terms of motion. that is, if an object is in motion, it is moving from point A to point B over time. an object cannot move without time because motion is a phenomenon that occurs only when time exists. if time does not exist, then an object could not move from A to B over time.
the weird thing is, i know precisely what i mean in my head, i just dont seem to be able to write it down sufficiently!
maybe time is a loop? a continuous looping. i must add, what about when nothing exists? if there is nothing to change, is time ocuring or is it paused?
i have often wondered about if the universe is a loop. is this what you mean? the universe may just be a repetitive process. im doubting this now though since various pieces of evidence have been found that suggest the universe is expanding at an eccelerating rate and so could not collapse to be reborn. as for when nothing exists; somebody already pointed out that nothing cannot 'exist' however nothing is, tome, a lack of existence. its even harder to put this into words than what i was trying before, but ill give it a go. the big bang was the explosion OF the universe. not in the universe, but of it. if time is another dimension, then time was created with the big bang when everything was. there is no such thing as before the universe - it is pointless asking what came before the big bang, as for there to be a before, there must be a time, and if time was created with the big bang then... its a bit like asking what is outside the universe, when the universe contains everything and so cannot have an outside. if you get me...Edited by: billyloner
motorhead
07-05-2005, 16:36
Does anyone here remember what it was like before they were born?............. that is what it is like when you are dead.
i've thought about this for a long time, and the most logical thing to me(it ties in with a lot of my other philosophical theories, which i don't really want to write out) is that time ceases, because time is based on memory, and memory based on the brain, but the experience itself is not a physical thing, and beneath everyone's individual minds and memories, is completely the same. so my answer is that nothing happens after death, because time ceases. however, consciousness keeps on going(at different times, in different people), which is essentially like still being alive. a unified-consciousness sort of thing, i guess, in which memory and the brain drowns out our perception of unification. but once it's killed, we "become" someone else, sort of like reincarnation, but not as linear. we "become" everyone else, as we currently are, but without the limits that our individual mind has on us. this is a really crappy explanation, and i wish i write it out better. i don't know, though, i've never died before, that i can recall anyway.
whitespider
07-05-2005, 18:17
When you die your ghost form is lifted up, you aren taken into another
body. Either in this universe, depending on your actions, or another.
Your actions on this planet are forming a path, for better and for
worse. Every action is a choice, every choice is a future reality.
Earth is only a planet, we are ants, and ants are our ants, ants also
have smaller ant like creatures living on them, on every level, there
are a infinate sub levels, the only thing that makes our level
significant is a base level of choice based on known actions. Wrong
choice.
God is not a mean bastard, he just wants us to work our shit out, get
over our desire to hate, to have sex, to think in this way.
Love.
Creeping Death
08-05-2005, 22:41
I don't belive that there is an "all mighty" god. God is nothing but another form of control. All religions revolve around one or several beings that have control over humans and the universe. And you have to "act" according to what the gods tell you to "score points" wich decide if you go to heaven or hell.
This is impossible. We are born against our will. Thats what life is according to religions. It is the exact same thing as being thrown into a hockey game without having any saying in it, and having to make a bunch of goals to "win". I do not belive at all that what we do or our destiny is pre decided. ALL beings are all-mighty, if there is even such a thing as a "being". After all, we cant know if something "exists" or not because we don't know what existence is.
Everything in the universe/dimension/conciousness is one. When you die, you move on. You can't know where, but i think that you move on to a completely different dimension and perception. Like the wildest acid trip that anyone has ever had.
Just a completely different "now". Maybe a place where such concepts as "place" and "now" dont exist. Maybe you just fly through the universe.
Haven and hell, god, a huge game of life that you are thrown into and forced to participate against your will, all bullshit.
All creatures are free to do what they want, when they want, where they want. Society, "god", and its rules are the only thing that limits our potential to excercise that freedom.
So you see, rules and limitations are a human concept. Not a celestial or universal one. Wich is why god is nothing but a form of control.
Nature Boy
10-05-2005, 02:14
I think death could be like the ultimate LSD trip, good or bad.
Recent scientific research indicates that just before death, massive amounts of psychadelic chemicals leak from the brain causing surreal images of either complete bliss, or ultimate hell.
This may well explain why people with near-death experiences see things they relate to religion.
After the trip though, there won't be any heaven and hell in my opinion being an atheist. It will just spell the end of your existence where you simply cease to be, much like before you are born.
I dont really believe in any god myself, but it would be swell if there were some form of life after death. I'd like to believe that at least our energy carries on - there's got to be something to the idea of a life force, or a soul.
The universe is too vast and mankind knows so little - I guess Ill just have to wait till that day comes and hope for the best!.
Mezza
Most people would agree that we as humans are self aware and have many capabilities related to that function.
I think it safe to say that the major consensus holds that once dead
you have no influence on the collective consensual reality. So that
being the case does it really matter if you retain some kind coherent
structure of being? I mean really if I die and am nothing more than
organic mush so what? If I die and there is some great beyond well I
really dont think my "corporeal life" is going to be the most pressing
concern for me right then.
What Im saying is it isnt very important to me what happens when I
die,Im absolutely gonna get to find out one day and Id rather wait till
then thank you very much. Its much more important to me what happens
when I "live" then what happens when I "die".
Unsolved
16-05-2005, 21:34
You know what i think. What if it all is a big joke? What if death really isn't any big deal. What if it was the start of your real life? I don't think the lights go out and you just die. There has to be more to it. I mean why would we be here in the first place? I think that you go to just another dimention or something of that sort. This definetly a good question and I'm sure everyone has an opinion depending on what faih/religion or background you come from.
I've always suspected that what happens when we die is this: We go on living, not knowing that we died. In other words, life is a wheel... just because we seem to notice a sudden change of state when others die, doesn't mean the same thing happens when we do. For all I know, I may have died 15 or 20 times already. Or a million.
I know that doesn't make much sense, but I think life just goes on and on until spiritually transcended. Death is a mental concept nobody has ever experienced, I don't think it's something experienceable. It's an idea or a notion, just like life is.
Our physical bodies fool us almost completely. What exactly IS a physical body? It's an imaged location in memory. Does consciousness come from the brain, or does the brain exist as a concept in consciousness? Both? Neither? Chicken or egg...Edited by: Nicaine
afromonkey
24-05-2005, 18:51
We're all treating time as if it's a big stream of events, as if
there's a clear order to everything, but what if time isn't that
objective, just a way we have of seeing the world ? Would anything ever
end in that model?
a "soul" is just a made up word, one used by many
religions to make the idea of a after life more belivable. What makes
you think people have a soul? Everything you are is your brain, people
are nothing but a complex organism. And anything you say cannot prove
their is a spirit or energy that lives on past death.
And anything you say cannot disprove it.
afromonkey
24-05-2005, 19:09
Surely then that is a weakness - if you can't say anything to disprove
it, then how is it possible to make sense of getting it wrong, if
whatever evidence you give just goes to support the theory of a soul
existing?
Surely then that is a weakness - if you can't say anything to disprove
it, then how is it possible to make sense of getting it wrong, if
whatever evidence you give just goes to support the theory of a soul
existing?
Not sure what it is you mean? I never said all evidence just supports
the existence of a soul, I said that there is no evidence that clearly
and conclusively disproves the existence of a soul.
If that were my only basis for believing that there is something more
than it would be a weak foundation indeed. I cannot prove a childs
imaginary friend isnt real and yet based on my life experiences</span> I know its not.It is based on my life experiences</span> that I think there is</span> a soul,spirit.Akasa, afterlife, something.
Many of these experiences are of a internal nature which makes it hard
to offer them as proof to someone who has not had those experiences
themself. Its kinda like trying to describe what exactly tripping is to
someone whos never done it. No matter how well you describe it, until
they do it themselves they cant really understand.
</span>
We're all treating time as if it's a big stream of events, as if
there's a clear order to everything, but what if time isn't that
objective, just a way we have of seeing the world ? Would anything ever
end in that model?
If the universe is infinite then it holds an infinite number of
possibility. Therefore ultimately it would seem that anything that can
happen will</span> or already has. </span>Or is it all happening now?http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif
No energy is ever lost it is simply changed to another form. If nothing
ends than nothing ever began. Eveything exists in state of constant
flux it is these changes when observed that give rise to time.
wow havent been in this one in a while.... im part of this organization we meet a lot, its a national thing NCACS.. ever heard of us, probably not. neways this years conference was in chicago (my hometown!) and my group was the host. ever hear of the 13 moon calander? well basically humans, and the TIME we have based our lives on is completely inaccurate. because of this we are not in tune with nature. we are actually de-evolving as a species. japan is discussing this by means of changing their entire calander. 13 months, 28 days each. there is actually 13 moons something or others that matches up things so perfectly. we are 70% water. the earth is 70% water. the moon pulls the tides. we ar part of this. this isnt just some theory bullshit its proven scientifical theories. scientists are blown away. our countries education system is lacking the most important knowledge humans should have. everyday has its own galactic signature. however it is important to note that everything has already happened. read the poem "burnt norton" by t.s. eliot... im not a big poet freak but this one was true. theres so much to learn about this i have only knicked it... anyone?
afromonkey
25-05-2005, 00:39
Is the idea of a soul existing able to be proved wrong - could there be any evidence against it?
Katiii - Do you have any links/sources do to with this theory of your society?
Edited by: afromonkey
oh my god theres infinitly many web pages... i wouldnt choose only one, just go to google and type in 13 moon calender... its the ancient myan calander actually... the existence of free will is the foundation of the upcoming argument for the existence of the soul. But there are some people who believe the existence of free will is only an illusion, and instead our actions are determined by prior causes
Natural Processes
<CENTER>|</CENTER>
<CENTER>CAUSE</CENTER>
<CENTER>|</CENTER>
<CENTER>Inner Brain States</CENTER>
<CENTER>|</CENTER>
<CENTER>CAUSE</CENTER>
<CENTER>|</CENTER>
<CENTER> Mental and Physical Actions......... compared to</CENTER>
<CENTER></CENTER>
<CENTER></CENTER>
<CENTER>
<CENTER>Natural Processes Outside Our Control</CENTER>
<CENTER>|</CENTER>
<CENTER>CAUSE</CENTER>
<CENTER>|</CENTER>
<CENTER>Inner Brain States</CENTER>
<CENTER>|</CENTER>
<CENTER>CAUSE</CENTER>
<CENTER>|</CENTER>
<CENTER>Mental and Physical Actions</CENTER></CENTER>
in tune with nature?wtf?no offence ,but no half learned theory like this,no matter how eloquent you be will ever hold water.This is just like scientologist shit,you(not you as You,but yknow what i mean)takesome sci fact,and weave a stupid halfass theory/ideology/belief/whatever.EDUCATION FIRST,than you can go into those no way to prove-ad infinitum-half educated discussions.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
facts:the mayan calendar is more accurate than the one we have,but that is a administration thing.Yes currently the 13 month calendar is more accurate.But that is cause the day is not 24hrs long but something like 24.3 or 24.2hrs,the earth slows down so in a few thousand yrs the day will be ~25hrs long,etc.
also as for the causality issue:there is one problem with humans they like shortcuts.That means when someone conceived the idea of natural causality (s)he(and others) took it as a dogma,and tried to explain everything with it.Nothing is simple,and cant be explained by only one or 2-3 theories.
The universe is so complex that jumping to conclusions takes away that little of "free will" you would like to posses.
Id have to agree, being atheist and not believing in the "spiritual realm", when you die its over...IMHO, just being in a pretty bad car accident I value my life alot more and try to be very careful now.
& ;nbs p;
&a mp;n bsp;
Natural Processes
<center>|</center>
<center>CAUSE</center>
<center>|</center>
<center>Inner Brain States</center>
<center>|</center>
<center>CAUSE</center>
<center>|</center>
<center> Mental and Physical Actions......... compared to</center>
<center></center>
<center></center>
<center>
<center>Natural Processes Outside Our Control</center>
<center>|</center>
<center>CAUSE</center>
<center>|</center>
<center>Inner Brain States</center>
<center>|</center>
<center>CAUSE</center>
<center>|</center>
<center>Mental and Physical Actions</center></center>
Interesting but what isnt clear to me is whether the natural processes
in the first example given are inside our control?</span>
Also does this model take into account the reciprocal effects of
actions on the physical towards the effects on the mental and vice versa?
While I do agree that naturally occuring cycles and forces can have a
strong impact on human psyche I think that the importance, in
this case, of these effects is greatly overstated.</span> They strike me as much the same folklore as the full moon causing insanity.
Edited by: uqlfy
Complicated issue ...
Matter and energy transforms, do not end its existence. I agree, but consciuosness and soul is not made out of matter and energy.
To die is to change our consciusness and to finish the relationship of this consciousness with our matter/energy in the physical world.
When we die, consciousness changes to an unknown state, and matter/energy stay in this physical world. So, our building blocks (physical and non physical) stay in the universe, but not related anymore. This relationship between consciousness and matter/energy is "life", the end of this relationship is "death", but the parts in this relationship stay and transform.
In thermodinamics, the matter and enegy changes but doesn´t disappear. Every time matter/energy is used (is transformed) a part of it is not available anymore. It stays in the physical universe, but not "useful" to our purposes. This is the concept of "free energy".
Our matter and energy will be part of other objects, living and non living, but this does not mean our "life" keeps going, we will be very death. Matter that belonged to other living creatures builds up our bodies, and this doesn´t mean these creatures live within us.
From our point of view, with our current tools (reasoning, language, knowledge, etc.) it is not possible to define what will happen. We have a very narrowed concept of counsciousness. The ideas and concepts of what will happen do not fit in our brains. The way our consciousness will change can not be imagined or defined with our reasoning.
The whole reality, the total reality, is something very different than our current counsciousness senses.
Is there a reason to struggle to know and to worry about something we will never be able to understand? From my reason, I think we should not invest time in this issue, don´t waste our time. From my feelings this is something we should explore and study.
Somedrugs and experiences help to understand how limited our consciousness is during our life. Some drug experiences open doors to new understanding, concepts not possible to "grab" from a normal state of mind.
I belive in reincarnation. I belive in the trascending of our consciousness/soul.
Since I tried Ketamine, I am convinced of the nonphysical world and nonphysical beings. I am convinced of other existence after our physical existence.
Another interesting thought..... Perhaps whan we die time loses
meaning. We live by changing. The concept of change relies on
time,yesterday today tommorow. Death is perhaps a static state,
where there is no change because there is only now. No change means no time. No time means no
life,at least as it means to us. So in a since when we die we are freed
from the concept of time. This is just a thought not what I feel is
exactly true but maybe a step in the right direction.
Edited by: uqlfy
diego wrote : "When we die, consciousness changes to an unknown state, and matter/energy stay in this physical world. So, our building blocks (physical and non physical) stay in the universe, but not related anymore. This relationship between consciousness and matter/energy is "life", the end of this relationship is "death", but the parts in this relationship stay and transform."
we must learn that matter is energy. inside of every atom there is a vaccuum. NOTHING... energy is flying around... in different patterns and speeds depending on the element. this is not some theory bs its blowing our scientists mind. think about this... how old are the science books students are studying? dont you think there is shit being dicovered everyday? of course. shit that would whhhhooooshhhhhh blow your fuckin mind. i go to a school that is dedicated to educating the most up to date facts. one very very important thing to learn DAERON , is that before you learn, you should UNLEARN. live outside of your skin. you is not really inside of your head... you are radiating
we must learn that matter is energy. inside of every atom there is a vaccuum. NOTHING... energy is flying around... in different patterns and speeds depending on the element.this is what im talking about.what have you said with this statement?that inside an atom there is vacuum?(not so,btw-vacuum is a pessure thing,and-it may be debated-a substance thing),that energy is "flying"?
this is not some theory bs its blowing our scientists mind. think about this... how old are the science books students are studying? dont you think there is shit being dicovered everyday? of course. shit that would whhhhooooshhhhhh blow your fuckin mind. i go to a school that is dedicated to educating the most up to date facts. just cos im a bastard-in science things never go whhhooooshhhhh.never.when you say some theory is new or cutting edge it means that its been around for at least 5yrs,with numerous journal publications&experiments.
one very very important thing to learn DAERON , is that before you learn, you should UNLEARN. live outside of your skin. you is not really inside of your head... you are radiating
now could we just for a moment imagine that im a dumb,and understand things very literaly.would you be so kind to explain poor ol me what did you mean by all that?
im getting a bit tired with all those endless statements that have absolutely no meaning.Ok one thing is what you think the world is like,or better yet what you feel it is like.But either you(and im not only talking about you,katiii) are repeating somebodys elses statements,be it learies,einsteins or fuck even hitlers or you have a problem with experssing your opinion.hey or maybe im just too dumb to get all that halfeducated mumbojumbo.
i would suggest,before forming an opinion so strong,that one should learn all she/he can before going out in the world and preaching...
PS as for the living outta my skin part,thats the biggest trick for humans.we are trapped inside.you may think or want to believe otherwise but it doesnt change the fact that we are.We are doomed to look the word through our subjective interpretations,and although most of them may be the same/simillar no view is completely the same.we will never be objective and we will never know how things really are.
When we die, consciousness changes to an unknown state,
Impossible... there's no such thing as an unknown state. For example, unconsciousness doesn't really exist because it can't be experienced or remembered. Anything unexperienceable is merely a theory. Social agreement means nothing -- for centuries, everyone believed the world was flat, or that the sun rotated around the earth. What we believe is meaningless.
I submit that both death and life are imaginary. They're projections based on our sense of time and memory, sensory mechanisms that create meaning out of nowhere and nothing. It's as if we're suspended in the void, spinning out a dream-universe.
We talk about death, without having even the vaguest clue what life is. How arrogant man is, or maybe just frightened...Edited by: Nicaine
<>we must learn that matter is energy. inside of every atom there is a
vaccuum. NOTHING... energy is flying around... in different patterns
and speeds depending on the element.
Nature abhores a vacume. Ever hear that? Even as we speak
astrophysiscts are charting new maps of galaxys. These maps show where
they once believed was nothing</span>
is now what they call dark matter and dark energy. It is common
knowledge matter is energy. What needs to explored is the relationships
between different energys. Mind and Matter.
Edited by: uqlfy
For example, unconsciousness doesn't really exist because it can't be experienced or remembered.</span>
To say that unconsciousness does not exist sounds ridiculous. It's not
an object. The word "unconscious" is used to symbolize a state of mind,
or rather, a lack of awareness.
I submit that </span><str ong="" style="font-weight: bold;">both death and life are imaginary.
They're projections based on our sense of time and memory, sensory
mechanisms that create meaning out of nowhere and nothing. It's as if
we're suspended in the void, spinning out a dream-universe.
</span></str><str ong="">Experiencing life as a human being can be classified as an
illusion that is contingent upon the human brain, but I wouldn't go so
far as to say that life is totally imaginary, i e; unreal. This
perception of the world that we hold at this very moment is the only
reality we will ever know (as humans) and so in some sense the human
experience can be defined as being 'real'.
One cannot catergorize death as being imaginary either. When I begin to
imagine what death will be like, I can think of nothing. (I can't think
of anything.) If you dwell on this thought long enough you will slowly
begin to realize that nothing doesn't exist, and since nothing doesn't exist, you cannot be no-thing.
We have been falsely indoctrinated into thinking that we have come 'in' to the Universe when in actuality we have come 'out' of it. Just as an apple comes out of an apple tree. So then those who believe they have come 'in'