Opinions - Best Prescription-Free Sleeping Aid [Archive]

hitman278

11-12-2004, 01:11

CABS205.

Try melatonin at 1mg and go from there. Theres timed released and faster acting forms. Try out both and see works best for you.

or

Benydrl at 25mgs to start with.

or

Like OneDiaDem said, Valarian root tea, liquid, or pill form. If buy this product try to buy it in extract form, its more pure.

or

Working out early mornings either in general or before work, even if
its just walking around the block it will make you more tired in the
evening hours (pending on your job).

Do you work mid-nights, days or afternoons????

Personally, I would start with the above meds and if that does not work
talk to your doctor. Also, be advised theres a ton more of OTC meds you
can try out. Start with these. I worked in a health food store for five
years (not as if that means anything), so I know enough to help ya
sleep at night. PM me if you have anymore questions.

Hope this helps.

Take care.http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif

Dualpower

23-12-2004, 10:32

"Try melatonin at 1mg and go from there"

WEDNESDAY, Dec. 22 (HealthDayNews) -- A U.S. government review of
more than 50 studies on the effect of melatonin on sleep has found
little evidence that the supplement helps people drift off.

While
melatonin does aid sleep in a certain group of people whose biological
clocks are out of kilter, researchers found it doesn't promote sleep
among the most common users of the supplement -- those suffering from
jet lag or weary shift workers.

"A lot of people take melatonin
for jet lag and shift work, but we found no good evidence to justify
the use of melatonin in this context," said study author Dr. Terry
Klassen, director of the Evidence-Based Practice Center at the
University of Alberta in Edmonton, Canada.

scout

07-01-2005, 13:57

melatonin & valarian rootdidn't work for me. I've been taking 2 tylennol pm every night for years.Helps, but I wake at least 2 x's a night and it takes a couple of hrs. to even make me feel sleepy.Your dr. can give you something, but he'll either give you a limited supply, or something more powerful that you will absolutely become addicted to and will need to take more than the recommended dosage after a while. If you don't have a problemwith that, and you can find a dr. that will give them to you (I'm not talking about ambien or sonata)go for it. I did, and I'm sorry I decided to quit the meds and the dr. SLEEP is so essential to a productive and stress free day. I'm an extremely hyper person, have been all my life andhave a hard time shutting down.

moeBius

13-01-2005, 22:37

hello,
what are your experiences with sleeping pills? did diphenhydramine, valerian capsules, l-tryptophan, melatonin or any else help you.
greets
M

Dualpower

15-01-2005, 10:08

jduba

16-01-2005, 12:10

over the counter i would say tylenol pm and start working out during
the day. not sure if you already are but i know if ii have a nice long
hard work out and a couple of pm's im out cold. for non-otc i would
suggest seroquil not really a downer but slows down your thought so
much that it knocks you ass out. good luck and let us know what works.

Guest

17-01-2005, 02:34

Take 150mg Diphenhydramine and 50mg Doxylamine together
with a glass of red wine.

moeBius

18-01-2005, 20:51

surely a good idea... o_O
even 100mg of diphenhydramine cause a bad afterglow which makes it useless as a sleeping aid.

William_Again

21-02-2005, 05:16

nyquil, get the gelcaps, the night time ones, take like four and wait a
half hour...they work quite nice, I used to work a night job and had
trouble sleeping in the morning and found this to be the best solution
till I got used to the sleep cycle.

club222

21-02-2005, 05:30

I was going to post nyquil as well. It puts me right to sleep.

carloshidalgo61

11-05-2005, 12:02

I said this somewhere else already, sorry. I ain't ever gonna get 100 posts cause I don't know 10 percent of you other people's knowledge. So this is just to help anyone wandering thru postings. Melatonin is reactive to light. Take it then bed down in a dark-ass room. I guarantee when it is time to wake up, you won't want to. Pretty good results for me, but I just hated getting up after it.

lilmiss

19-10-2005, 06:15

Dextro

19-10-2005, 08:47

Taking four benadryl makes it easier for me to fall asleep, although I prefer the prescription sleeping aids.

wingsofazrael

19-10-2005, 08:51

dihyphendramine, l-tryptophan and melatonin have all proven effective for me...i prefer ambien or halcion though if youre lucky enough to cross its path

Phungushead

19-10-2005, 09:31

50mg diphenhydramine has always worked for me.

Emperiorjack

19-10-2005, 14:28

diphenhydramine is the strongest sleep aid you can find.

Red_Baran

20-10-2005, 00:52

The otc sleep aidsare all diphenhydramine (in my area)wich doesnt do shit for swim. Even pm's, nyquil and anything you can buy otc doesnt do shit for swim. the only thing that swim has had sucess with is benzo's and weed (even alcohol will kill swims sleep)

blindpanda_eric

20-10-2005, 01:13

Diphenhydramine didn't work in low doses for me. However, at
500mg doses, it put me right to sleep. The problem with that is,
its bad for the liver, its 1/4th the lethal dose, cottonmouth the next
day, and still some deliriant effects the next day.

This is why I try to cut down on Caffeine, and only take
Diphenhydramine when I need it. Truly, sleeping pills shouldn't
be taken every night. Just when you need them.

sands of time

20-10-2005, 01:15

Here is my personal experiences with sleep aids...

Doxylamine Succinate: Probably works the best, and it's sedative effects can last quite a bit. The problem is that it can make you feel tired and lethargic the next day, all through the day. In my experince, if I take this stuff at night, I will sleep well. I will feel zombie like the next day, until work ends. When I have to go to sleep again, I will have trouble again, so one may be tempted to take more. Do not take larger than recommended doses, as this stuff can eat away at muscle tissue. Doxylamine Succinate is the antihistamine in nyquil, and it is put in some OTC sleeping pills.

Diphenhydramine: Less effective in helping with sleep in my opinion. The sedative effects fade in less than an hour, and you must take it an hour before the sedation is noticed. The next day, I feel a bit zombie like, but not like with doxylamine succinate. Diphenhydramine is sold OTC in benadryl and unisom.

Herbal teas: I find the most effective herbal tea would be chamomile. 3-4 tea bags is mildly sedating and calming. It is not overly effective, but there are not any next day effects. It does help. Velarian root tastes like shit, as does hops. I would go without sleep before chugging any significant amount of that shit. Decaf tea is mildly calming. Kava has worked in the past, but now it actually keeps me up longer.

Alcohol: I do not recommend it, since it tends to keep me up. I would also suspect that alcohol supresses REM like barbituates, which is very important for improving and maintaining cognitive function. The disadvantages of alcohol use for sleep should be obvious, but a doctor would be happy to run through them with anyone.

armatitumor

20-10-2005, 01:17

armatitumor

20-10-2005, 01:18

I found melatonin worked until the recent info arose that it didn't.

It blew up my whole placebo infested universe and sent me back to square one.

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley19.gif

Are you serious????????? Melatonin has always worked great for me, does
it actually not do anything? I thought it was a hormone naturally
produced in the body in a response to light to make people sleep.

sands of time

20-10-2005, 01:26

O, I forgot to mention melatonin. I tried this stuff, but I required 6 mg to get any sedation. This is 2-4 times the dose of most melatonin sleeping aids. The sedation is short, mild and all in all, I have had little results from it. Melatonin may have difficulty passing the blood brain barrier, and it is probably broken down quickly. Many also think melatonin plays a minor role in the natural sleep cycle.

blindpanda_eric

20-10-2005, 01:37

I'm fairly certain that anybody claiming melatonin works, is
experiencing a placebo effect. Not to say thats bad, I did the
same thing for awhile. I was taking in the range of 9-12mg though.

bonghed

26-10-2005, 17:18

melatonin is not one of the best choices imo

Melatonin seems to work uch better when your lying down, enabling you to sleep easily, but if your not lying down you probably won't notice anything

Valerion bark extract is in melatonin isn't it? or maybe im thinking of them calm tabletsEdited by: bonghed

Phungushead

18-11-2005, 11:36

^Yup, same here. Whoever says diphenhydramine isn't habit-forming

needs to be slapped upside the head... I've become VERY dependent

on that stuff.

strangedream

29-11-2005, 08:08

Im convinced over-the-counter sleeping pills are more then just mentally addictive, dont mess with them. I developed a addiction to them.

Richard_smoker

30-11-2005, 05:23

--diphenhydramine 25-50mg taken 1 whole hour before you intend to become drowsy.

--also l-tryptophan 50-100mg just before bed (15min) will help. if you live in the US, then you have to settle for 5HTP.

--and YES, melatonin DOES work... trick is, you gotta take it about 3 hours BEFORE you intend to sleep. That's how it will help reset your circadian rhythm. the only problem is--how do you know whether or not your melatonin pills actually have ANY melatonin IN THEM!? (they're not fda regulated!). the brand I've used in the past that DEFINITELY works and is cheap is Natrol in blue bottle... REALLY cheap 3mg tabs.

Richard_smoker

01-12-2005, 00:56

melatonin IS a significant NT for sleep cycle. it IS the pineal gland's way of telling your body it's bedtime.

before electricity, people would go to sleep when it got dark.

now, with technology, everyone's hormone-regulatory cycle--the daily circadian rhythm is so fucked-up, that we have overcome the effects of darkness and endogenous melatonin on our sleep cycles.

The question is not whether melatonin works. it's whether:

1. if there's even any melatonin the pills

2. how much gets absorbed from the GI tract

3. how much, if any, crosses the blood brain barrier

4. how much or how many pills of what brand supplement is necessary to reset your body's clock.

it's different for each individual company and for each individual person, but in an ideal setting, you should be able to take the melatonin at the same time every evening for about a week,about 3 hours before bedtime, and you'll be back on schedule.

but, alas, read problems 1-4 above to see why that's not really so possible. and that's why they have created some kind of prescription version of melatonin--to ensure potency, BBB crossage, absorption, etc.

-shem

sands of time

03-12-2005, 00:26

Yes, I know that there has been alot of people saying melatonin is the primary neurotransmitter for sleep, but as far as I know, that has not been proven. I have talked with quite a few doctors who have doubts as to whether or not melatonin strongly influences the sleep cycle. Many other doctors feel that it has some sort of effect, but not enough to warrent buying the pills.

I was wrong in saying that I think melatonin isn't a significant neurotransmitter for the sleep cycle. It is, but I am unsure as to what degree. It would make sense for melatonin to influence the sleep cycle, because when it gets dark, melatonin levels in the pineal gland greatly increase. From what I remember, seratonin is converted into melatonin in this cycle. There just isn't alot of solid research on the subject, and many doctors are very iffy on whether all this is true.

I also think that the blood brain barrier might render melatonin useless, as with the GI track, and all the other obsticals. The pills have done no good for me, although I only tried two brands.

Richard_smoker

03-12-2005, 00:36

yeah, that's all true about serotonin... as well as the shitty lack of research.

you should go to walmart and buy that cheap brand I got--uh, Natrol 3mg. other brands have done nothhing for me. try a couple of them. i bet you'll be surprised. i'm immune to placebo effect (unless you say, "hey this will increase your general overall well-being!! but it takes time to build up in your system!".

actually, i wouldn't fall for that bullshit, but i have in the past w/ginseng.

jesusfreak666er

08-12-2005, 03:00

no such thing as a good otc sleeping aid... sry to break the news bro. though benadryl might make u feel tired, it makes u feel like crap. see a doctor and get a rx for ambian or lunesta or a benzodiazapine. as long u dont have a history of drug abuse getting a small script for a sleep aid should not be a problem... and if u dont feel like that hit up ur local drug dealer lol

GNCSUX

20-12-2005, 22:31

Theanine is the best product ive used that is out there for OTC sleeping aid ... 400mg before i go to bed and i have a hard time keep my eyes open .... do a search its pretty cheap too

Equality

20-12-2005, 22:48

I would say Valerian root, i have it here and it always helps very well when i'm not tired but need to go to sleep.

jaked588

23-12-2005, 06:55

doxylamine works for me as well as 5HTP

Miss_Methylene

08-06-2006, 17:54

I bought Melatonin 3mg from my local health supplment store. It's been aprox. 2 month's of me taking it every single night. I take it around 11:30-Midnite, so basically you could say I take it the same time every night. I didn't start to have any noticeable effects until about my 15th day of taking Melatonin. Now, after being 2 months or more of taking this supplement, I find it to be very helpful for getting a good 7 to 8 hours of nightly rest and waking up un-groggy.

jaked588

16-06-2006, 05:38

i think i developed a dependancy for melatonin a few years back. i took 1-5 mg every night for im guessing between 6 months and a year, and when i stopped, sleep was not possible

jardo

16-06-2006, 05:55

I always found that melatonin works really really well...

If not, Tylenol Cold and Flu Night Time Relief works pretty darn good as well.

hh339

16-06-2006, 10:30

GABA has worked good for SWIM, actually it has worked for a lot of things. Calming down somewhat, lessen hangovers, sleeping...

Nicaine

17-10-2006, 03:25

P.S. the most effective sleep aid has to be sleep deprivation, seriously... the only trouble is it's unpredictable (one is prone to falling asleep mid-morning or afternoon). Benzos can help a little, but they can sometimes make things worse too. Taurine can be somewhat helpful as well. Maybe the best non-prescription aid is a combination of several things like 5-HTP, Taurine, L-Theanine, Valerian, passionflower, a small dose of a benzo, etc. Take a look at what the herbal combo tablets designed as sleep aids use.

Edit -- diphenhydramine works well for some too, but seems to have a narrow dosage + window of time in which it's effective. If you don't fall asleep within an hour or so after taking it, you probably won't.

Tropical

18-10-2006, 05:27

Swim suffers from insomnia too. Constant insomnia from as far back as he can remember, 37 years ago when he was 5 years old.

A couple years ago he spoke with a two physicians in the family. They both advised that he try to avoid prescription sleep aids. They wouldn't recommend weed (they get stoned recreationally though and say its safer long term than the legal alternative hypnotics). They said to try to get by with just lifestyle changes, like trying to go to bed at the same time every night, avoid caffeine, etc. Swim tried all of that and they work if he eats a quarter gram of weed baked into a cookie two hours before bedtime. It works like a charm every time. For the past two years, swim has gotten the best sleep of his life.

Nicaine

18-10-2006, 10:22

SWIM picked up some doxylamine succinate tablets at the drugstore today. First use was 12.5mg combined with 5mg ambien (rectal admin) which hit him like a freight train carrying steel boulders.

As fast as he blacked out, he woke up again 2.5-3 hrs later, and redosed with more doxylamine (rectal admin again). The stuff has a mean but not unpleasant body load... it seems SWIM's been "blessed" with the ability to get to like just about any drug if he merely takes it a few times! :rolleyes: He's currently busy putting something in his stomach, then it's off to bed again.

After some getting used to, SWIM figures he'll be able to substitute doxylamine/rectal for Ambien fairly readily, except in the most sleep-resistant cases where only the raw knockout power of Ambien will do the trick.

acolon_5

18-10-2006, 15:21

Melatonin in the 6-12mgs range works wonders. Don't think its placebo either. Try taking 24mgs of it and then telling me it is placebo.... if you got no stims in you it WILL knock you out at the higher doses. 1-4mgs does nothing to me. Although I have found that with the higher doses there is definite grogginess the next morning and waking up is very hard.

For perscriptions I go with Lunesta 3mgs before bed as perscribed. 8 hours on the dot and I am up rearing to go, no hangover, no sedation the next day...great stuff.

Paracelsus

18-10-2006, 19:00

it might sound strange, but when i really have to be well-rested for the next day and i'm out of benzos and exigan(valerian+phenobarbital) i just take a non-psychoactive dose of nutmeg (2-3g ground nutmeg powder) in the afternoon, around 15.00. This makes me fall asleep somewhere around 22, and i usually wake up after a minimum of 10 hours of deep sleep.

I discovered this a couple of years ago, when I tried to get high from nutmeg and I never managed to ingest enough (it tastes *GROSS*). The only effect that I got from this was long and deep sleep.

9mg melatonin 30 minutes before bedtime will help for most people though.

EDIT: one reference for nutmeg (Legal Highs by Adam Gottlieb):
NUTMEG -- _Myristican fragrans._ Family Myristicaceae (Nutmeg
family).
Material: Seed of tropical evergreen tree found in East and West
Indies.
Usage: 5-20 grams of whole or ground nutmeg is ingested.
Active Constituents: Methylenedioxy-substituted compounds:
myristicin (non-amine precursor of 3-methoxy-4,5-
methylenedioxyamephatemine [MMDA]), elemicin, and safrole (non-amine
precursor of 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine [MDA]). These and other
aromatic fractions combine synergistically to produce psychotropic
effect. Terpenes enhance absorption.
Effects: Possible nausea during first 45 minutes, followed in
several hours by silly feelings and giggling, and then dryness of
mouth and throat, flushing of skin and bloodshot eyes, heavy
intoxicated feeling, incoherent speech and impaired motor function.
This is followed by tranquil feelings, stupor with inability to sleep,
euphoria and twilight state dreams. Total experience lasts about 12
hours, followed by 24 hours of drowsiness and sleep.
Contraindications: May cause temporary constipation and
difficulty in urination. Nutmeg oils increase fat deposits on liver.
Safrole is carcinogenic and toxic to liver. Beneficial as spice or in
small amounts; not recommended as hallucinogen.
Supplier: Grocery stores; viable seeds, RCS.

.

Nicaine

18-10-2006, 21:02

Melatonin in the 6-12mgs range works wonders. Don't think its placebo either. Try taking 24mgs of it and then telling me it is placebo.... if you got no stims in you it WILL knock you out at the higher doses.
See, that's the thing with prescription sleep aids tho... they'll knock you out even if you do have stims in you. Drugs like Ambien or Lunesta not only sedate you, they switch off the part of the brain that resists sedation/sleep and keeps up the endless mental chatter. Practically guaranteeing sleep, as long as a person's lying down or relaxing. No dosage of melatonin is gonna do that, and that's why scripts are indispensable IMO.

That said, SWIM is going to try high-dose melatonin. The doxylamine succinate didn't work so well for him last night, even after redosing (he was frustratingly on the verge of sleep in a sort of trance most of the night... never got any REM sleep worth talking about).

Paracelsus

18-10-2006, 21:37

That said, SWIM is going to try high-dose melatonin.

Melatonine is a hormone so it doesn't knock one out like benzodiazepines/barbiturates do, but it helps for a good sleep.

I remember after it was proven that high levels of melatonin lower estrogen and progesteron level, melatonin was used in 75mg (!!!)doses as an anticonceptional. This wouldn't have happened if melatonin would induce sleep like hypnotics do.
All that melatonin does is it helps the body establish a healthy sleep cycle, by inducing tiredness when it starts to get dark around you. So it is best to darken the room when using this. Otherwise it will most likely have no effect at all.

Fantasian

18-10-2006, 21:40

SWIF always found that a 5-HTP supplement always helped him sleep.

Nicaine

18-10-2006, 21:42

BTW, I found out that the oral bioavailability (http://jcp.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/40/7/781) of melatonin in humans is only 15%. Sounds like a prime candidate for either (A) sublingual admin, or (B) rectal admin {dissolved in water}.

SWIF always found that a 5-HTP supplement always helped him sleep.
Actually, that's relevant... 5-HTP is converted to serotonin in the brain, which is then converted to melatonin. Might be worth taking the melatonin directly to avoid serotonergic side effects (anxiety, flushing, diarrhea) but of course it's up to the individual.

Paracelsus

18-10-2006, 21:51

hmmm interesting. i tried medium doses sublingual a couple of times, after a suggestion from psych0naut in SWINicaine's thread "manly use of ambien". It does definitely work, although i haven't seen any dramatic increase in effects. rectal administration would have the highest bioavailability i think.

Are there any melatonin suppositories (or how the fuck are they called in english) around? [seems more tolerable to me than rectal syringe...:eek:]

Fantasian

18-10-2006, 21:53

BTW, I found out that the oral bioavailability (http://jcp.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/40/7/781) of melatonin in humans is only 15%. Sounds like a prime candidate for either (A) sublingual admin, or (B) rectal admin {dissolved in water}.

Actually, that's relevant... 5-HTP is converted to serotonin in the brain, which is then converted to melatonin. Might be worth taking the melatonin directly to avoid serotonergic side effects (anxiety, flushing, diarrhea) but of course it's up to the individual.

SWIF atually enjoys the sideeffects from 5-HTP, it makes him feel a little flushed and tingly! :)

SWIF has taken meletonin in the past but never found it very effective.

psyche

22-10-2006, 11:28

Sorry if someone already mentioned this, I didn't read the whole thread, but since melatonin is chemically related to serotonin and other monoamines, would it be worth trying to take a MAOI along with melatonin. Or is it somehow dangerous?

Paracelsus

22-10-2006, 11:44

Don't try that unless you are 100% sure that it isn't dangerous.
Melatonin is related to DMT in its chemical structure. (look up melatonin and dmt on Wikipedia)

Nicaine

22-10-2006, 16:26

Are there any melatonin suppositories (or how the fuck are they called in english) around? [seems more tolerable to me than rectal syringe...:eek:]
No, not that SWIM is aware of. But there's absolutely nothing intolerable (or even uncomfortable) about a rectal syringe, at least in SWIM's opinion. Unless a person has phobias in that department.

SWIM started an experiment... he mixed 1.5mg melatonin, 12.5mg diphenhydramine and 12.5mg doxylamine succinate in water, and is planning on letting the crap from the pills settle out (the actual substances are all water soluble) and trying that via rectal admin for sleep. Should be an interesting combo (which of course could all be taken separately/orally, but wouldn't be either as fast acting or as effective as rectal). SWIM has had little luck with these ingredients individually, but in combination perhaps there's some synergy. He should be getting his Ambien refilled in about 7 days, so he can give up on this other nonsense and go back to what works well/consistently for him.

Nagognog2

23-10-2006, 16:53

An anti-histamine taken rectally? Be interesting to see if there is a rebound effect - such as sneezing out SWIM's asshole all the next day. Also as diphenhydramine is generally supplied as the hydrochloride, there might be some burning issues to address.

Paracelsus

23-10-2006, 17:10

Also as diphenhydramine is generally supplied as the hydrochloride, there might be some burning issues to address.

What about hydrochloride? Do you mean acidity or something else is the problem? If it's acidity, no problem, neutralize it with something slightly basic. (Check pH)

Nicaine

23-10-2006, 23:26

Melatonine is a hormone so it doesn't knock one out like benzodiazepines/barbiturates do, but it helps for a good sleep.

I remember after it was proven that high levels of melatonin lower estrogen and progesteron level, melatonin was used in 75mg (!!!)doses as an anticonceptional. This wouldn't have happened if melatonin would induce sleep like hypnotics do.
All that melatonin does is it helps the body establish a healthy sleep cycle, by inducing tiredness when it starts to get dark around you. So it is best to darken the room when using this. Otherwise it will most likely have no effect at all.
Melatonin does have something of a hypnotic effect, at least for some people:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=melatonin+hypnotic+activity

SWIM started an experiment... he mixed 1.5mg melatonin, 12.5mg diphenhydramine and 12.5mg doxylamine succinate in water, and is planning on letting the crap from the pills settle out (the actual substances are all water soluble) and trying that via rectal admin for sleep.
BTW, the above worked very, very well. Almost too well, SWIM was getting some minor closed-eye visual hallucinations after taking it. Apparently the combo of doxylamine and diphenhydramine is pretty potent. SWIM recommends (if anyone else is nuts enough to take it rectally) it to use only 1/2 of the above mixture and see how it affects you.

azrael2600

25-10-2006, 01:53

swim has used a low dose of diphenhydramine as a sleep aid with amazing success. although swim has noticed that when swim has taken a high dose of diphenhydramine swim has experienced minor hallucinations.

mfrieze

07-11-2006, 02:38

50mg of diphenhydramine knocks me right out within 2 hours. diphenhydramine never used to do anything to me until i did about 800mg of it to trip.. every since then.. even 25mg's will put me to sleep

Tropical

07-11-2006, 03:03

50mg of diphenhydramine doesn't do much for me. 100mg helps me sleep, but it leaves me groggy the next day.

The same 50mg combined with .25g of weed baked into a cookie leads to a blissful night of sleep without any hangover for SWIM.

Nicaine

07-11-2006, 04:23

SWIM is almost out of Ambien and will have to do some creative experimenting again. He's going to order phenibut, despite some warnings. He thinks if used carefully it could help with relaxation and sleep.

Fleetwood271

26-12-2006, 21:35

So how much diphenhydramine is too much?

I've taken 100mg before.

Would I be okay with 200mg?

Any benefits to 200?

Any negatives?

Riconoen {UGC}

26-12-2006, 21:49

diphenhydramine totally. and there are definate negatives to 200 mg's, like a trip to the psych ward after imagining you're spiderman and falling from a three story window. ok, i'm exaggerating but you get my point?

Paracelsus

27-12-2006, 09:27

Melatonin does have something of a hypnotic effect, at least for some people:

I wanted to try to verify that (on my buddy SWIM).

SWIM once took 15mg melatonin orally, on an empty stomach (around 5 PM). After about 30 minutes, he noticed a slight hypnotic effect coming on, and after an hour he couldn't hold himself awake and he fell asleep. Woke up at 8 PM, after reaching REM sleep (dreaming).

On other two occasions, SWIM took 15 mg / 18 mg melatonin, under the same circumstances, but no noticeable effects occured.
Pretty strange, especially considering that SWIM swears that the first trial wasn't just placebo.

DrMuffy

27-12-2006, 11:44

In SWIdr's opinion Bynadryl or diphenhydramine is the best OTC sleep aid. It usually knocks SWIdr out (though usually in a slightly uncomfortable way), and its half life is only like 6 hour so it sahouldnt cause a hangover. There are alot of herbal sleep eids though that can be used in combos that can really help too, so there are ALOT of options to choose from...

Myzel

04-01-2007, 07:37

I agree that meletonin does work as long as there really is meletonin in the pills your taking. Swim bought some expensive one's at a health food store at the didn't do jack shit. Then swim found some at a discount store for like $2 and they worked great. I do believe you need to take a break every month or so that you can achieve the full desired effect.

darkd3vil

04-01-2007, 16:28

For SWIM 3mg of melatonin sublingual 30 min prior to lying down in his bed in a dark room does somehow calms him down but has no hypnotic qualities. But SWIM thinks it's more of use because of the strong anti-oxidant qualities it wears!

Beeker

10-01-2007, 07:18

50mg diphenhydramine swigged down by half a dose of NyQuil followed by sex - out cold ... with a smile!

El Calico Loco

10-01-2007, 07:30

Swim has had some luck with regular doses of diphenhydramine, melatonin, kava kava root, valerian, and vitamin B6. This combo knocks him right the fuck out, and it's a peaceful, refreshing sleep.

Not something he does everyday...only when the insomnia seems impervious to diphenhydramine alone. :)

ECL

MrMouse

21-02-2007, 05:07

Promethazine & Diphenhydramine both OTC UK work in combo I've heard.
They do nowt for me though.

Bajeda

21-02-2007, 05:43

Melatonin is the best OTC sleeping aid swim has tried. A week of taking it a few hours before he wants to go to sleep and his sleep schedule is back on track! Its also excellent for eliminating jet-lag.

Someone mentioned above that you need to darken the room for Melatonin to work properly? I think you are mistaken somewhat. When it gets dark out your pineal gland produces more Melatonin in your body, peaking at 2:00AM I believe. The levels fluctuate naturally throughout the day, increasing when it gets dark and diminishing when it gets light. This isn't the most responsive process, so taking a supplement of Melatonin you'd want to take it before the hours of the day when it would peak naturally, otherwise you'll end up feeling more tired the next day.

5-HTP is also helpful in inducing drowsiness to a certain extent, though swim finds this most helpful in combination with Melatonin. Swim takes the Melatonin at 10pm say, and then will take the 5-HTP about 20 minutes before he wants to go to sleep, so at 11:40 perhaps in this instance. It helps intensify his drowsiness further so he can lie down and fall asleep fairly quickly and wake up feeling fine the next day.

And if swim has an especially messed up sleep schedule (when swim takes Melatonin he usually will max it out at 3mg, 1.5 if he is taking it later than he usually would) he will take some Kava along with the Melatonin and 5-HTP (he just started doing this recently). This will help him get off to sleep in instances where otherwise the Melatonin - 5-HTP combo wouldn't quite be enough and swim would be lying in bed for at least a good hour or so before passing out.

Also, just to note, swim doesn't take Melatonin all the time. He doesn't find it necessary or think it especially healthy to take supplements such as M on a consistent basis. If he uses it regularly for a week his sleep schedule is set fairly well - and can survive fluctuations - so all he needs to do is be active during the day and he can fall asleep without the usual difficulty he has, and if that doesn't work he can take some other substance to help make him drowsy so he can pass out, i.e. Kava, 5-HTP, Xanax, some other Ethno, etc.

~lostgurl~

21-02-2007, 08:11

Does the brain distinguish between sun and artificial lighting then? Swim also thought that Melatonin only worked if the lights were out. She took it for a few weeks (prescription grade 1mg per night) and didn't really find it helpful at all, she thought maybe it was cause the dose was too low or because of the glare from her computer screen and artificial lights. Maybe she'll give it another go and double the dose, she did find the whole dimming the lights thing really annoying.

Bajeda

21-02-2007, 08:31

The brain doesn't distinguish between kinds of light, it just perceives either "light" or "no-light", though I believe it only production of melatonin that is influenced by the cycle of light and darkness as perceived through your eyes. Melatonin helps to regulate your circadian rhythm, which is why it is so helpful to take as a supplement when treating jetlag.

Taking it would definitely help with a messed up sleep schedule, especially if you are awake at night with lights on quite often, though its not a one-time make you fall asleep deal really, besides if the inherent problem is derived from something with your circadian rhythm. If you have other sleep-related disorders it may not be as effective.

Swim sometimes finds that 1mg doesn't do much for him, but if he goes and takes 3mg at midnight he is quite drowsy and ends up regretting it the next morning when he still feels as though he should be in bed. He doesn't get any of the nasty effects he gets from taking too many sedatives the night before though.

I'd say its worthwhile to experiment more with Melatonin. Doing more research may help if it isn't helping, either to see if there is a more effective way of using it or maybe to help find other underlying causes for whatever sleep problems there may be. Just to note, though, if swiy is using any stimulants then the Melatonin will have greatly reduced efficacy, as your circadian rhythm isn't regulating your body's need for sleep anymore!

~lostgurl~

21-02-2007, 08:44

Swim's not currently using stims, and she wasn't when she was using melatonin either, but she has been decreasing her Zopiclone sleeping pills dose, she is down to 1/2 a 7.5mg pill per night and has actually been sleeping pretty good the last few weeks. Also, when she was taking the melatonin she was sufferering from RLS (Restless Legs Syndrome) and nothing would work for sleep when she had that.

Even though she is sleeping good now she is still going to bed really late and would like to get a normal sleeping pattern back so she will give the melatonin another go for a week, she has 2 weeks supply of 1mg per night, so maybe doubling that dose will help. Thanks for the advice and info, much appreciated.

Paracelsus

22-02-2007, 17:14

Hops (Humulus lupulus) are mentioned as a sedative in 'Legal Highs'. So SWIM decided to try this as a sleep aid, and tried the suggested methods.

He smoked about 1g (no 'mild marijuana-like high with sedative qualities', actually nothing at all), made tea from up to 15g of cones, and felt very weak sedative effects. Sleep was possible though.

Maybe an extraction into alcohol will work better. SWIM already steeped 10g in 35ml ethanol (98%) and 35ml water (for one full week), and filtered it. I will report SWIMs experience with this extract, soon.

UPDATE: SWIM drunk the liquid and experienced somewhat stronger sedative effects. Stronger than the quantity of alcohol, but not worth it (too many better alternatives).

darkglobe

04-03-2007, 22:42

Valerian root works, but extremely subtly.

I'm in the middle of figuring out whether it's the valerian root, wild lettuce or hops in my sleeping pills that are causing me to be depressed for a few hours after they kick in.

darkglobe

04-03-2007, 22:52

Diphenhydramine HCl has been my sleep aid of choice for a few years now. Problem is, my mate SWIM told me that it stopped working after quite a lot of recreational use.

I'm currently using valerian root which I think may be causing me to have sudden bursts of depression for a number of hours after taking.

Just outta curiousity, seeing as I live in the UK I've never heard of Ambien. What exactly is in Ambien?

Thanks,

~Dark
PS: I'm back! :D

Mr.Nixon

14-05-2007, 04:38

Melatonin always works well for me. I've also had some good experience
with valerian, but i have to take really high doses to get it to work.
I've heard good things about Ambien, but that's prescription, isn't it?

neither valerian nor melatonin works for me

and there are studies linking melatonin use to cancer

but this is also in large amounts and frequent (everyday) use

Paracelsus

14-05-2007, 11:48

and there are studies linking melatonin use to cancer

Since melatonin is produced naturally in the body, in quantities similar to those taken with melatonin supplements (1-4mg), I would doubt that. Could you please upload some files about melatonin and cancer to the archive?

SuprSonik

19-05-2007, 21:04

SWIM doesn't find Diphenhydramine very effective as a sleeping aid. Even at 100-150mg doses, it doesn't seem to effect him much.

On the other hand, Doxylamine puts SWIM right to sleep at the recommended dose of 25mg. SWIM doesn't even bother with prescription sleep aids since doxylamine is so effective for him.

Mr.Nixon

22-05-2007, 17:49

Since melatonin is produced naturally in the body, in quantities similar to those taken with melatonin supplements (1-4mg), I would doubt that. Could you please upload some files about melatonin and cancer to the archive?

i should of said i heard there are studies

but heres a bit of info for you all

Cancer Causes and Control

Circulating Melatonin Levels: Possible Link Between Parkinson’s Disease and Cancer Risk?

"Lower rates of cancer mortality/incidence in patients with Parkinson’s disease (PD) have given rise to speculations about risk or preventative factors common to both diseases, including life-style factors (such as smoking) and genetic susceptibility. Melatonin, a hormone known for its sleep regulatory effects, may play an important role in carcinogenesis as suggested by substantial laboratory and less direct epidemiologic evidence. Particularly, a reduction in melatonin, such as experienced by persons who are exposed to light at night, appears to increase cancer risk. Variations in melatonin levels have been linked to PD in several different ways. Some studies show higher morning melatonin levels in PD patients than in healthy controls. One could speculate that the sleep disorders that affect almost two thirds of those suffering from PD and can precede PD motor symptoms by several years may be associated with variations in melatonin levels. Moreover, in animal models, interventions that increase the bioavailability of melatonin appears to increase the severity of parkinsonian symptoms, whereas reduction in melatonin by pinealectomy or exposure to bright light can enhance recovery from parkinsonisms symptoms. Finally, preliminary epidemiological evidence suggests that longer years of working night shifts is associated with a reduced risk of PD among participants of the Nurses’ Health Study (NHS), whereas longer hours of sleep appear to increase their risk. In sum, while lower melatonin concentrations may predict a higher cancer risk, there is also some evidence that they may be associated with a lower risk of PD. We therefore hypothesize that elevated circulating melatonin levels in PD patients may contribute to their lower cancer rates."

Jatelka

22-05-2007, 17:51

^^^ Source please? Meaningless otherwise.

iw2gf

01-06-2007, 07:22

hello,
what are your experiences with sleeping pills? did diphenhydramine, valerian capsules, l-tryptophan, melatonin or any else help you.
greets
M
Try sleepmd from GNC.

kareena

20-06-2007, 21:32

Herbals have never done anything for SWIM. SWIM used to use a regular dose of diphenhydramine successfully, then needed to increase it as it didnt work as well and eventually it didnt work very well at all, though without it SWIM would be awake for days. As with many things tolerance developed, for SWIM anyway. SWIM then got a prescription for mirtazapine (remeron), which is actually an antidepressant. As an AD it is used at 15-45mg effectively but at 7.5mg-15mg it doesnt work so much as an AD but primarily as a sedative; it is one hell of a strong antihistamine. It WILL knock you on your ass. Years of trawling insomnia forums SWIM has only encountered one person for whom it did not work as a sleep aid. Eventually, now even this doesnt work for SWIM as well as it once did (in fact, it used to work far TOO well) so has been dropped. Ah, the joys of insomnia.

allyourbase

20-06-2007, 23:03

lagochilus inebrians ~ 1/5th of a gram of extract, makes swim sleep like a baby. it reminds swim of taking benadryl as a child, that deep deep sleepyness.

geophagus

21-06-2007, 08:59

Tylenol PM or the walmart brand work for me.Whenever I can'tfall alseep on my own I take2 or 3 and it seems to help. I just feel foggy-headed the next morning if I only get 3-4 hours sleep before the next day begins.

For anyone taking Tylenol PM just to help them sleep, why not just take Benadryl (diphenhydramine) all by itself?

There is nothing wrong with taking Tylenol PM if you have trouble sleeping and say you have a headache, or perhaps some other kind of pain that you might be needing to treat. However, if you are not in any pain then there really is no need to consume the acetaminophen. In Tylenol PM the acetominophen does not help or induce sleep, it's only the diphenhydramine in Tylenol PM that does that.

Acetaminophen is not the worst thing that you can consume obviously, but since it doesn't help any with sleep, there really is no point in taking it unless you are trying to treat pain. It's known to be somewhat taxing on the liver too, and for people who like to drink this can become an issue since alcohol and acetaminophen both compete for the same enzyme in the liver.

So, if anyone reading this currently takes Tylenol PM for sleep, save your money & your liver by only taking the diphenhydramine for sleep. ;)

geophagus

21-06-2007, 10:07

SWIM stumbled across that same site about 4 or 5 years ago, and it scared the bejesus out of him. You see, SWIM had taken so many different prescription sleeping pills over the years, and after reading the information at that site SWIM felt that he had to find out more about the claims that the Dr was making.

To SWIM's surprise, the Dr who wrote that book had been involved in some published research concerning the issue of increased mortality rates associated with sleep duration & insomnia. Here's a quote from one of those articles discussing the results of a study done in 1982:

"'Participants were more than 1.1 million men and women from 30 to 102 years of age. The best survival was found among those who slept 7 hours per night. Participants who reported sleeping 8 hours or more experienced significantly increased mortality hazard, as did those who slept 6 hours or less. The increased risk exceeded 15% for those reporting more than 8.5 hours sleep or less than 3.5 or 4.5 hours. In contrast, reports of "insomnia" were not associated with excess mortality hazard.'"
http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/59/2/131

SWIM has become very interested in learning more about this subject since stumbling across that Dr's claims several years ago, and SWIM is hopeful that something more conclusive concerning the causality will be forthcoming.

The articles SWIM read that related to this issue certainly gave SWIM much to think about concerning his old habit of sleeping 12 hours or so a night (when the opportunity presented itself) like he so often did in his younger days. :o

SWIM never struggled with sleeping per se, however SWIM did/does struggle with the act of falling asleep.

~lostgurl~

29-06-2007, 04:36

Phenergan (promethazine) is an antihistamine which worked well for SWIM last night (40 mgs) but has left her feeling tired and lethargic today. Higher doses cause hallucinations for SWIM.

geophagus

29-06-2007, 04:45

Is that an OTC drug where you live lostgurl?

I wish it was OTC where I live.

~lostgurl~

29-06-2007, 10:40

Yup it is OTC but SWIM had to give her name and address and a pharmacist had to sign it off.

mathkilla

13-07-2007, 07:57

I think melatonin works, I also read that some country doesnt sell it over the counter, I wonder why? When i get a day off from work, i would crush about a gram of melatonin and mix it in drink (this occurs in the afternoon, early afternoon), and just chill the fuk out for the evening, hoping it doesnt' cause me to take a nap. I also like that equate sleeping aid, the generic version of unisom, sold at wal-mart, recently the stores my area haven't restock it, and some stop selling them, which really sucked for me b/c i had a dependency on them, so i now use melatonin, and some doxylamine.

wilde

14-07-2007, 02:19

There is a concoction where I live called "Sleep.Relax" made by London Naturals (in Canada). It consists of 100 mg valerian, 100 mg skullcap powder, 50 mg passion flower extract, 50 mg hops powder and 25 mg hops extract. This stuff works like a charm and no morning hangover.

Raw edge

31-07-2007, 19:26

Phenergan (promethazine) is an antihistamine which worked well for SWIM last night (40 mgs) but has left her feeling tired and lethargic today. Higher doses cause hallucinations for SWIM.

Swim tell me that only the elixer is OTC where he lives. If he wants tablets he needs a prescription.

mrphucker

14-08-2007, 18:52

Take 150mg Diphenhydramine and 50mg Doxylamine together
with a glass of red wine.

The doxylamie would do the job alone....Big ZZZZ's coming out ya nose and everything

frankpikins

31-08-2007, 09:27

swim would say that diphenhydrite or dimenhydramine are the best choices for knockout pills, however both those drugs prevent you from achieving the REM sleep which is the most important part of the sleep cycle so really they are probablly worse for you then tossing and turning for half an hour.

the best choices for truelly restfull sleep would have to be melatonin or tryptaphan

FuBai

08-09-2007, 16:32

SWIM has found that a simple mixture of melatonin, alcohol and cannabis is powerful enough to send him into a deep sleep. I know cannabis isn't something you can buy over the counter in anywhere but the Netherlands, but I should imagine that everyone on these forums should be able to lay thier hands on it without difficulty.

SWIM took:
T 0:00 :12mgs melatonin
T 0:30 :One Marijuana Cigarette (however much it takes until you feel that heavy pressing on your forehead)
T 0:45 :4 shots of 40% (80 proof) spirit or two pints of beer brewed from hops.

That's a recipe for sleep, although your dreams may be a little more unusual/vivid. Don't take the melatonin after 1 AM or you could give yourself a sythetic jet lag.

~lostgurl~

08-09-2007, 17:30

FuBai

08-09-2007, 17:37

12mgs of melatonin is a huge dose. Did SWIY increase the melatonin dose because lower doses were not effective or was it assumed that "more means better"? SWIM finds 2mgs of prescription grade melatonin quite sufficient, and as Bajeda stated above, melatonin is often more effective in small doses. Just curious as 12mgs seems over the top, even more so when combined with other sleep aids.

SWIM started on 3 mgs and progressed up to 12, adding 3 mgs every night until it started to work for him. He did a bit of research to check what doses other people had found efficacious and found an article saying that different people can vary from tiny amounts to 20mgs+ as an efficacious dosage. In combination SWIM admits it is pretty overpowering - after downing 2 shots of vodka SWIM was having problems co-ordinating himself to pick up the last one. This may have been effected by the letticue opium SWIM used as his burner in the cannabis cigarette. SWIM found the sleep to be deep and thoroughly refreshing, but that his dreams were very strange. SWIM only used that dose because that was the dose that he had found efficacious before, he probably should have concidered moderating it in the presence of other substances.

x cynic x

08-09-2007, 19:12

Unisom has a product with 25 mg's of doxylamine succinate per pill, and Swim finds them very effective in helping him sleep.

El Calico Loco

08-09-2007, 23:42

FuBai

10-09-2007, 21:44

12mg of melatonin is huge, but it's not that bad. Melatonin is good for you, save for some individuals with asthma. Swim usually takes just 3mg or so, but sometimes - if it's a weekend and he wants to have bizarre, vivid dreams - he'll take four to six times that amount.

He wouldn't take that much every day, though.

ECL

Well SWIM did his research, found that there was no known LD50, that the negative effects of ingesting relativley large amounts (20mgs+) were for the most part temporary and scince then SWIM was been getting by with nothing at all to aid his sleep, worrying about the possibility of dependance and habituation which is something he is keen to avoid. The important thing to remember is that SWIM is 6ft 5 and 17 stone, has in the past drank a 1 litre bottle of 37.5% vodka in 12 hours without getting a hangover (he woke up still drunk though, that was majorly disconcerting for him) and generaly requires higher doses than other people in whatever substance he is using.

BobTheGreat

12-09-2007, 06:40

Only read part of the thread so sorry if its been addressed but diphenhydramine and its cousins cause broncial secrections to thicken so it should be used with caution for people with asthma or any other broncial problems. Of course this is mostly a problem if used in combination with other CNS depressants such as alcohol, benzos, opiods, ect.

Handle

03-10-2007, 04:44

Everybody is right! OTC sleepers can definitely create massive tolerance very quickly. The best IMO is doxylamine, because it causes much less cottonmouth than diphen'.
There was a study that shows antihistamine sleepers can cause tolerance in less than 4 days! Seriously. Avoid dependence by never exceeding recommended dose and try to never take them every night, even if seriously needing help, even spacing them out by as little as 1 alternate night seems to help keep out of that self creating cycle.
Melatonin, well, SWIM believes in it, but it has never worked for him! Tried large and small doses, it all felt like crap. BTW, dark cherry juice contains natural melatonin, fact, and that seems to really work. Must be all nat. though.
Valerian never seems to work on its own, but skullcap seems to help heaps [swim is a big believer in herbs].
And serious, does doxylamine waste muscle? SWIM has a big problem with it and is skinny as shit! Worrying...

wearestardust

16-10-2007, 01:56

ejbot

27-10-2007, 22:21

basically, swim hasnt done any drugs in about 4 months until this week. did lsd one day and kratom tea yesterday.

amazing!
) but no more suppy :/
kratom 20g powder in iced tea =mediocre compared to other substances, swim had 3 hours of sex with his girlfriend without cuming though :P

to the point:

im looking for something fun to try that i can get without a prescription, i live in the USA so could someone give me good suggestions on what i could get from say the grocery store? haha ^_^

(feels nice being able to say "i" because im talking about legal substances)

PS: im trying cold water extraction with Excedrin and Advil right now because its all i had around ^_^ dunno if it will work.

soma

28-10-2007, 02:01

1st, just what are you trying to extract from Excedrin or Advil? They have no abusable components, you'll just kill your liver and stomach, or both!

2nd, You could always get Ultram/Tramadol, Soma/Carisoprodol, or Fioricet/Butalbital at most online pharmacies. There are forums around that tell you which pharmacies are reliable. Google is your friend.

3rd, There aren't many (or any) abusable OTC (over the counter) medications. Sure, DXM (dextromethorphan) is abusable, but a dirty dirty drug. You can find much info on this drug with the search feature on the site, so I won't go into detail about it. Just whatever you do, make sure dextromethorphan is the ONLY active ingredient, otherwise you could be looking at death. There is nothing else worth using that can be had over the counter.

4th, Get some real drugs, not something OTC. If you're really 18, then you can order from many online pharmacies and get real, abusable, prescriptions such as the ones I mentioned above. All you have to do is fill out a quick questionnaire and its usually there at your house the next day (FedEx Overnighted). And then of course, there is alcohol. Its not hard to get, I'm sure you can get resourceful even if your only 18.

Sorry to break the news, but your only hurting your own body by trying to get high off OTC medications. Only DXM is abusable, but its still very dangerous. Be careful, and get some more respectable drugs ;)

ejbot

28-10-2007, 02:21

haha yea otc isnt such a good idea ^_^
im really into being healthy, and i honestly eat better than anyone i know, but also like exploring altered states of existence, which usually comes with SOME damage to your physical shell, except i havent found acid to do anything negative unless used heavily.

which would you all recommend as the most fun substance available to order online? im currently feinding to try something new, i've done all the common illegal street drugs and got in a lot of trouble with them so im endeavoring to stay LEGAL :P

ps: yes alcohol is easy to come by, i rarely drink though because its not so healthy :P

BobTheGreat

31-10-2007, 01:26

DXM is otc because there is no good alternative. For years it has been expected that it will be pulled when a replacement comes out. Nothing has come yet. At recreational doses it is toxic but not theroputic doses which is why it is otc. It also doesnt have a side effect of sleepiness that comes from antihestimenes put in cough syrups. If swiy is really interested, there is an entire subforum for dxm with all the info swiy could want on it.

Handle

31-10-2007, 02:31

Sorry, I must just add to this for people living in countries that have the stuff. There is a particular brand of dihydrocodeine cough syrup that contains NO OTHER active ingredient. So for all you out there who are used to the side effects of DXM syrup, the sorbitol, all that, and want an opiate buzz, I say, there you have it. It is not inactive as an analgesic/euphoriant, it is not just for cough, don't let people tell you otherwise. In some countries like thailand it is available as a pure pill for pain, much like hydrocodone. It's not as weak as you might think either. Anecdotally and on many sources it is said [and I believe rightly] to be about 1.5 times STRONGER than codeine not weaker. SWIM also told me it's very good for desperate people who are in withdrawal and have absolutely nothing better to help. This is a fact. It is not bad stuff. [I do believe though, that Americans can't get it, so, sorry about that]

Handle

31-10-2007, 02:51

SWIWAS has never yet found an OTC preparation that actually works. The closest thing was probably Phenergan (promethazine) 25mg, which he is prescribed for hay fever, but at night 50mg acts as a bit of a sedative; the poster who said that antihistamines lose this effect very quickly is quite correct. If you need to sleep, then there's no alternative to a prescription. SWIWAS rotates two meds, flunitrazepam 2mg and midazolam 15mg, in order to prevent building a tolerance. Also, it is best to keep at least two nights per wek med-free. If you happen to live in a country where flunitrazepam is no longer available (I think I am right in saying that one is the USA) then a viable alternative is 10mg nitrazepam or 30mg temazepam. But unfortunately these do not help insomnia which is anxiety-related nearly so much as the favourite, flunitrazepam (Hypnodorm, Rohypnol, etc.) It also helps SWIM by removing the need for a morning dose of my anxiolytic, since it seems to have a carry-over effect unlike any of the others. 'Z' drugs are IMHO a waste of time. Zolpidem in particular has so many undesirable side-effects and also loses all effectiveness after a week's use.

I must just say here that SWIM has found that the higher the dose a benzo comes in, the crappier it seems to be. Hence, the best have always been stuff like valium [5mg the normal maximum] and flunitrazepam [2mg] and all the stuff in like 30mg is just awful. Some might be temped to think that what they lack in potency, they make up for in dosage. Not so, no I believe that the high dose stuff is just so weak it'ss useless. One finds oneself scoffing down fistfuls of 15 & 30 mg weaklings trying to get some rest, but just gave it all up in the end. The only good thing about high dose weak pills is the withdrawals, which are basically nonexistent thatnks to their lack of desirable effects in the first place. SWIM had to avoid it all in the end though, it was getting impossible. Either high dose weak pills which just seemed to have absolutely no effect on the one hand, or tiny potent 0.5, 1 & 2's like ativan, clonazepam or flunitrazepam that work but absolutely fuck you up entirely, just completely kill off the memory, make your head cloudy all the next day, make you clumsy and cottonmouthed.
Wearestardust, your SWIY is lucky that he/she has flunitrazepam, if effects are what you're after, but my SWIM feels he just couldn't win with any of the common benzo's. His dose just had to skyrocket so quickly his body and mind couldn't keep up with the onslaught, just to achieve some deep sleep. IMO probably the most 'normal' and predictable one would be plain old valium, it seemed to cause the fewest unwanted mental effects.
However, I do strongly support your advice to see how many nights you can go without taking the stuff, and two nights a week is a good start.
And it probably is a good idea if you can to alternate between those two because they have different effects and you wouldn't want to get too precisely attuned to just one frequency. Then the next step is to see if you can get a 'run' going, say three to five nights without the stuff, then try to beat your previous record.
If you don't want to quit and just want to enjoy drugs, self restraint and patience is still the best way to keep getting the same effect. If you make SWIM's mistake and choke down ungodly amounts to no avail, you will lose both your health and any pleasure from the experience.

wearestardust

31-10-2007, 03:16

Handle, you are right about a lot of what I was saying. However you are wrong about meds which are 'high' mgs. It is simply a matter of how much of a certain substance it takes to produce the required effect, thus 30mg temazepam is equivalent to 10mg nitrazepam or 1mg flunitrazepam. The strongest of the lot is actually the 15mg midazolam.The basic idea of keeping two drug-free nights and rotating two or more different molecules is to prevent a tolerance building up. If you take flunitrazepam for more than two or three nights running you will notice it is less effective; however if you rotate with other hypnotics like midazolam, temazepam,nitrazepam or brotizolam then you will avoid this situation. SWIWAS has had programmes of sleep meds worked out for years now.Every now and then it is an idea to change to one that you never normally use, like flurazepam or triazolam (Halcion 0.25mg). Even some of the short half-life anxiolytic benzos can be effective sleepers; oxazepam being a case in point.But SWIWAS stands by his assertion that the only decent OTC sleep aid is promethazine 25mg (Phenergan). Anything else is a waste of time. And dihydrocodeine is mainly used as a painkiller in 30, 60, 90 and 120mg strengths and is much, much stronger than codeine phosphate. It is only slightly less strong than hydrocodone, and has the advantage of being pure, not combined with paracetamol, that very dangerous OTC painkiller responsible for so many deaths from liver failure every year. Why it is still available OTC is a mystery to SWIWAS.

Handle

31-10-2007, 05:29

No, I'm just saying that from, well just from personal observation, even when taking it for the first time, that the particular benzo's that do require high doses just don't feel as good. It's a qualitative difference. I can't remember which one it is I'm talking about, but they were orange pink, and instead of a score down the middle they had this deep, wedge shaped splitting division [like the type on an ativan pill]. Like I mean, a deep wedge down one side where you can split it. They did not come in a thin elongated box like valium, nor a bottle like clonazepam, but in this thin flat square box and I think they came in a dose of either 15 or 30 mg's, and the one I'm talking about had was thirty mg's. Anyway, just from personally observing the effect, the stuff just seemed like it did not have any of the effects one might be used to or might expect. That's all. If only I could remember the name of the brand or drug, but I can't. Anyway, there can't be that many out there at 30mg's. Maybe it was temazepam. But my point is, of course tolerance was a factor, but still the lower dose drugs just seemed to be innately more potent. I don't know why, but I got the feeling that you can't just say, this is weaker, therefore a higher dose will make up for it. It might have been serepax come to think of it. Sounds familiar.
It was just something I noticed, a subjective experience.
As for dihydrocodeine, you intrigue me. Do you have the option of OTC dihydro pills for pain in the UK? that would be astonishing. I am fascinated. I don't think we have dihydrocodeine for pain here in Australia, certainly not on its own, once it used to be available in these strange powder sachets called 'codox' but I think it's been withdrawn. We only have it for cough, and now I think they've banned the 200ml bottle, so it's practically impossible to have frequent fun with it because they insist on taking down your name sometimes, so the best you could buy in one go is 190mg's because you'd get 19mg/ml in 100ml. But still, that would be hefty enough for a bit of fun.
I knew they had pure pills for pain in Thailand, are you saying you can get the same thing in the UK?

wearestardust

01-11-2007, 02:11

Hi Handle;
Actually you can only buy OTC dihydrocodeine with a maximum strength of 10mg per tab, usually mixed with 325mg paracetamol. You need a prescription for the pure 30mg and stronger tablets. Yes, they are used a lot throughout Europe for moderate pain. Some well-known brands are DF-118, Dicodin, and Contugesic.
I believe you can still get 2mg flunitrazepam under the name 'Hypnodorm' in Australia. SWIWAS has tried to find this online but with no success. In fact, he is having a great deal of trouble locating his favourite sleep aid at all, anywhere nowadays. Does SWIY know of anywhere on the web that lists this aid to sleep?
WAS

wearestardust

01-11-2007, 02:20

I should have added there that we are more likely to get OTC Codeine Linctus for cough, containing either 10 or 15mg codeine phosphate /ml. I haven't heard of dihydrocodeine being used for cough in the UK at all.

Handle

01-11-2007, 03:52

Deleted- off topic

Jatelka

01-11-2007, 06:36

OK, this is veering seriously OFF-TOPIC (although interesting)

Best OTC sleeping aids please.

Discussion about differences in opiate availability should be posted in opiates

wearestardust

01-11-2007, 18:05

Yeah Jatelka,
I think I made a comment to that effect either in this thread or a very similar one that things were veering off-topic. I too like things to be in their proper place! SWIM does however know one person who uses a codeine-based preparation as an aid to sleep, funnily enough. But I stand by my assertion that there is no OTC product bar perhaps promethazine that can REALLY help with a sleeping problem. In SWIWAS's experience, all these Valeriana-based things are a waste of time and money, none ever having helped him in the slightest.

highganja99

05-02-2008, 00:10

Benadryl is a good OTC sleep-aid. sounds strange but the original pink packets of benadryl contain diphenhydramine the same drug used in the OTC sleep-aid Nytol in the uk, Nytol comes in 25mg and 50mg strengths, most people will need to use 50mg to gain sufficient sedation. I have tried Valerian Capsules, Apart from the smell and taste if you don't swallow em down as fast as possible they do seem quite effective, in both cases about 30(60 For Valerian?) minutes after you have taken them you should be lying in bed in the dark and trying to get comfortable for sleep (not using too much energy) you will eventually drift off to sleep. try not to get too agitated about it all. relax, that's the best way to get a good night's sleep even if you are not taking anything to help.