CWE: safety or paranoia?

[Tortoise]

Satan wants to know what the deal with the minisule amount of water that everybody uses in their CWE's (ROT is 2ml per pill). After doing a CWE where he used 100ml of water he ended up with a clear solution. He understands that there most certainly would be a level of paracetamol in there, but he wanted to know how much. So he did a little experiment;

Satan went to the shop and bought a pack of paracetamol capsules. Each capsule had 500mg of paracetamol and nothing else, no binder, nothing. He emptied one capsule into a small amount (50ml) of room temperature water and found that virtually none of it looked like it dissolved. He then added more and more water only to find that he could still see heaps of paracetamol bits floating around, even when he had about 800ml of warmish water.

From this experiment, he summises that there is no way that even 500mg of paracetamol (a very safe level) could dissolve in say 200ml of water whether it be cold or hot. He concludes that paracetamol saturates at a very, very low and very, very safe level and this makes him question the techniques that he has read on the internet. Is it really unsafe to use any more than 2ml per pill, or should he just go ahead and use more water from now on to achieve a better yield?

[Nagognog2]

I'd say SWIM is on the right track, but missing a few stations enroute. Let me explain:

Equipment Needed for follows:

Graduated Cylinder 250ml or larger.

Milligram Scale.

Laboatory-grade -10 - 110C thermometer.

Water.

A few bowls and a scraping device.

Filter Paper.

Other Accoutrements...

Now for REAL science here's what some pioneering monkey could do:

Weigh a pill of paracet/codeine. Let's say 30mg/300mg.
Do a CWE after taking the temperature of the water and the volume used in the Grad. Cylinder before using. Do as usual.
Note the amount of water and temp.
Filter as usual - saving water and filtrate in filter-paper.
Dry the filtrate (filter cake) thoroughly and weigh. (air-dry - don't use heat)

Now do some math: If the pill weighed 400mg and the filtrate (dried) weighs 300mg - 70mg have gone into solution in the water along with the codeine.

Now try this again with the water at a different temperature. 5C. 10C. 25C. etc.

The differences found will be the paracetamol more likely than the binder added to the pills during manufacture. By also checking volume of water used as a solvent, you will be able to come up with an optimal method of CWE and volumetric data regards amount of water to use utilizing both volume and temperature.

So who wants to play Mr./Mrs. Chemist? Any SWIM's out there?

[Tortoise]

Very thorough! But Satan can't be bothered doing all that. His "eyeballing" method just got him curious. Quite simply; he put 500mg of paracetamol from a capsule into several hundred mls of water and a vast majority of it didn't dissolve. Is he game enough to test this theory? Probably not, because even Satan values his liver too much.

[darkglobe]

I'll give it a whirl, Nagognog2.
Just need to replenish some filter paper supplies and I'll be sorted.

I'm extremely paranoid about carrying out CWE these days. After Approx 2.5 months of Codeine obtained using the CWE method, my mate SWIM noticed the need to urinate waay too often. SWIM then took 1 500mg paracetamol tablet to kill a headache he had, and immediately vomited.

Not good.

~Dark
PS: As far as I'm aware, all paracetamol tablets have binders and other non-active ingredients in them. May cause accuracy problems.

[Tortoise]

PS: As far as I'm aware, all paracetamol tablets have binders and other non-active ingredients in them. May cause accuracy problems.
Perhaps you should try to get your hands on some capsules instead of tablets... Kinda worrying about your friend. How often did he use codeine?

[darkglobe]

SWIM used Codeine erratically. Usually once or twice a week, but sometimes every day.

SWIM has been to a doctor since his last post, and doc has confirmed that SWIM has suffered moderate live damage due to his occasional laziness of taking 30/500 pills (up to 6 of them) without extracting.

Tortoise, could you please explain how capsules are a better choice for SWIM? He really doesn't know how.

~Dark
PS: Google image search for "extreme liver damage". Yeesh!

[Tortoise]

Tortoise, could you please explain how capsules are a better choice for SWIM? He really doesn't know how.

If you were going to do some lab experiments on paracetamol, I imagine that capsules (ie plastic tubes with powdered paracetamol) would give you more reliable results as I presume there is no binder in them. Just open it up and pour the powder out.

FYI. I read somewhere that liver damage from paracetamol toxicity is fully reversible. You just need to survive the first week!!

[Nagognog2]

The damage is kinda reversible. But it leaves lasting scars on the liver - thereby reducing the function. So you can get away with it for awhile. But then you end up with a doctor calling your family members: "Yes. This is Doctor Addapart calling. Could you donate Hortense a juicy chunk of liver? No? You're qute sure? I'll tell him..." CLICK!

"Sorry. But not. However we have a lovely Armadillo here!"

THUD!

[darkglobe]

Somewhat reversible is much better than not reversible, I suppose :)