Kicking recipe for opiate withdrawals (Thomas recipe)

[Benga]

found this recipe while searching for info on vitamins (!). Might be nothing new, but i though some could be interested :


http://www.medhelp.org/perl6/Addiction/messages/31800a.html


Well, since I seem to be the first one up on this Sunday morning, I guess I'll post it. I had it copied onto my computer and am using the vitamins from it as I taper and it is helping me immensely. This has worked wonders for many people. He also includes a disclaimer which I did not have pasted stating that he is not a doctor, just an opiate addict that after many years of experience he developed this and he also reccomends that you discuss the vitamins and use of benzos with a doctor. Everyone, I hope I stated the disclaimer correctly, please correct me if I'm wrong.

For the Recipe, You'll need:

1. Valium (or another benzodiazepine such as Klonopin, Librium, Ativan or Xanax). Of these, Valium and Klonopin are best suited for tapering since they come in tablet form. Librium is also an excellent detox benzo, but comes in capsules, making it hard to taper the dose. Ativan or Xanax should only be used if you can't get one of the others.

2. Imodium (over the counter, any drug or grocery store).

3. L-Tyrosine (500 mg caps) from the health food store.

4. Strong wide-spectrum mineral supplement with at least 100% RDA of Zinc, Phosphorus, Copper and Magnesium.

5. Vitamin B6 caps.

6. Access to hot baths or a Jacuzzi (or hot showers if that's all that's available).

How to use the recipe:

Begin your detox with regular doses of Valium (or alternate benzo). Start with a dose high enough to produce sleep. Before you use any benzo, make sure you're aware of how often it can be safely taken. Different benzos have different dosing schedules. Taper your Valium dosage down after each day. The goal is to get through day 4, after which the worst WD symptoms will subside. You shouldn't need the Valium after day 4 or 5.

During detox, hit the hot bath or Jacuzzi as often as you need to for muscle aches. Don't underestimate the effectiveness of hot soaks. Spend the entire time, if necessary, in a hot bath. This simple method will alleviate what is for many the worst opiate WD symptom.

Use the Imodium aggressively to stop the runs. Take as much as you need, as often as you need it. Don't take it, however, if you don't need it.

At the end of the fourth day, you should be waking up from the Valium and experiencing the beginnings of the opiate WD malaise. Upon rising (empty stomach), take the L-Tyrosine. Try 2000 mgs, and scale up or down, depending on how you feel. You can take up to 4,000 mgs. Take the L-Tyrosine with B6 to help absorption. Wait about one hour before eating breakfast. The L-Tyrosine will give you a surge of physical and mental energy that will help counteract the malaise. You may continue to take it each morning for as long as it helps. If you find it gives you the "coffee jitters," consider lowering the dosage or discontinuing it altogether. Occasionally, L-Tyrosine can cause the runs. Unlike the runs from opiate WD, however, this effect of L-Tyrosine is mild and normally does not return after the first hour. Lowering the dosage may help.

With breakfast, take the mineral supplement.

As soon as you can force yourself to, get some mild exercise such as walking, cycling, swimming, etc. This will be hard at first, but will make you feel considerably better.

[Creeping Death]

One thing though. Going cold turkey after a long addiction is DANGEROUS. If you try this on, you better have already lowered your opiate use a bit.

[Be-Bop]

I have taken 15-20 5mg Valiums to try & help me sleep during withdrawal...not being able to sleep, & the tossing & turning, & the 'tension' in the wrists &shoulders etc is THE THING which drives me up the fucking wall...... but i find that while A LOT of Benzos may knock me out for 45min..on the whole, it just leaves me reeling & disorientated...makes it harder to keep things in 'perspective' (ie...increases risk of thinking 'fuck it', & scoring) & leaves me feeling twice as bad in the Mourning...


I have finally recognized, for me anyway, SLEEP is just not going to happen in the first few days-week of withdrawal... & i used to get myself in TROUBLE trying to 'make' it happen....


That said, i agree very muchly with most of the other suggestions in the post....eating, vitamins, hot baths & exercise are ALL really good things to do in order to make withdrawal as 'tolerable' as possible (?), the only thing i have found benzos 'good' for, & some pot helps with this as well..is to keep myself from FREAKING OUT at the sense of the ENOURMITY of it all!!! & to try & keep everything calm& in perspective (the same word again, mmmm???)


Be-Bop. http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley15.gifhttp://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley8.gifhttp://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/smileys/smiley15.gifEdited by: Be-Bop

[bonghed]

Why is this exactly?

Well in rare cases (maybe lots of cases just my opinion)

I just really wouldn't advise use unless really neccessary, because although tapering really slowly can avoid most withdrawal symptons, i went through HELL with it and feel so strongly it obviously effected my jundgement and the possible benefit of methadone, it's still not i a decision to be taken lightly.

Well young people aren't even fully developed, i mean yea it can help but that is rare?

all what i typed here is all my opinion no facts, so i would learn what works for you yourself

Honestly probably just because i was fairly young when i done done, it might be life changing in a good way to others, i understand everyone is different, sorry bout that there mate(s)

[Richard_smoker]

WARNING: OFFENSIVE MATERIAL!!! DO NOTREAD UNLESS YOU'RE READY TO QUIT!!
Now that you've been warned, I am apologizing for hurting anyone else's feelings who thinks that he/she is a candidate for this therapy...

First off, this whole idea is going to sound insane to most people reading this forum... I understand, and I'm willing to accept some people thinking that I'm an absolute dumbass so that this suggestion can be heard...

I've known many people who have battled all sorts of different kinds of addictions, drugs and others. But I must say that opiate addictions (i.e. lortabs, oxy's, etc) are probably the worst in terms of their effect on the body, the mind, the attitude, in dealing with other people WHILE you're actually addicted to the drug!!! That's right. Notice that I didn't say they're the worst when you're COMING OFF of them! I'll say it again in another way:
WHEN PEOPLE ARE ADDICTED TO OPIATES, THEY TREAT OTHER PEOPLE WORSE THAN SHIT. THEY BECOME VERY UNRELIABLE, UNFRIENDLY, UNPREDICTABLE, AND AN OVERALL PAIN-IN-THE-ASS. EVEN THOUGH YOU 'FEEL' GOOD, AND YOU 'THINK' THAT YOU'RE BEING NORMAL, YOU'RE NOT! NOTHING DRIVES AWAY FRIENDS FASTER THAN OPIATES. PRETTY SOON, ALL YOU'LL HAVE ARE OTHER OPIATE-ADDICTS FOR FRIENDS. (oh yeah, the reason I know all this is because I've been there and I've stopped and I've been there again, and I've stopped, and --etc.)

Hope that made sense... Did it? :) OK, the reason I put it that way is because many people think that they're somehow 'better' people when they have their drugs. I've even read in the Merk Manual (for Dummies) that narcotic abusers act completely normal when they are adequately medicated. Funny, but I disagree.

Sure, if you're a lortab junky, you THINK that you're fine when you have enough lortabs, but trust me-->your friends think differently!!

If anyone wants to argue this point, then please do this first:
1. Get yourself some buprenorphine (suboxone, subutex, Temgesic, whatever).
2. take small doses for about a week just enough to ward off the WD symptoms.
3. Now wait 3-4 days after your last dose of Buprenorphine... You are now OPIATE-FREE!! Seriously. Your habit has now been officially KICKED! If you followed directions, you should be totally free of physical symptoms. no goose-flesh, no temperature spikes, no nothing. you're done. you're clean.

4. Chill out. Enjoy your life for a few days/weeks because now you can see what life is like as a NONjunkie. You must stay in step 4 for at least 5-7 days in order to move on with the plan.

5. Now, this is the weird part. (you've gotta trust me here) Take some time and gather yourself together a good stash of whatever your drug of choice WAS before you quit. Go ahead. Get your lortabs filled, or whatever it is that you needed everyday last week.

6. Go ahead. Indulge yourself. Take 1 or 2 LT's to work with you. Take them after lunch, or when you get home or whatever. Remember: you're not "ON" them anymore, so it will take a couple of days to get back into the physical side of addiction. They feel good, huh?

7. Now, notice the way you feelboth during and after the feeling goes away... weird huh!? Most people don't even NOTICE that their moods are so fluctuant when they are actually ADDICTED (physically) to the pills! This is the power of denial. It's amazing.... remember: never underestimate the power of denial.

Now, since you're back into your drug of choice, and you've broken your promise to yourself, you're probably going to run through your entire stash again... that's ok.

just be sure and notice how much different you are acting to others. notice the way others respond to you. remember how much better you felt about yourself when you were weaning onto and back off the buprenorphine.

Get ready to stop again, and restart the Buprenorphine... except this time, you will have permanent markers in your memory stores. You can immediately call up memories of what opiates do to you after being off them completely. You can remember that they are NOT 'you' anymore. You can and you will stay off them because they are shit! S-H-I-T!! You can only keep taking them if you are, in fact, a piece of shit yourself.

Hope this proves helpful for some. I know it's unorthodox, and I certainly wouldn't recommend it to someone who hasn't already experienced detox using buprenorphine in the past. This technique is ONLY for those who have access to Bupe, but refuse to use it. You know who you are! The ones who refuse to admit to yourselves that lortabs and percocets and OC's are making you a giant piece of shit.

Go ahead and admit it to yourself. No one's listening. Say "I AM A PIECE OF SHIT."

Now, get out there and get yourself some Bupe and/or follow the EXCELLENT guidelines given in this thread. You can not only kick the habit, but you can kick it forever when you realize that it doesn't do SHIT to help you with your life.

If you followed the instructions for the experiment, you now KNOW that opiates actually INDUCE anxiety, depression, helplessness & fear!

Good luck to all--and do not think for a second that this post is loaded with sarcasm or that I don't care about each and every person suffering from opiate addiction. Sometimes, the people who know the best are the people who have been where you are standing... PM me for more info, support, advice, suggestions, etc.
As Bon Jovi said it so beautifully, "I'll be there for you..." -Dick

[Richard_smoker]

OK. Now that I have that out of my system, on to something VERY different indeed...

I know that I am not alone when I say that members of this site who are U.S. citizens are saddened and depressed when they read the amazing success stories of opiate addicted persons who stopped cold-turkey without side-effects from the supposedly magical plant: Ibogaine.

Well, I have absolutely no idea how to get Ibogaine, and this is NOT a guide to help you find some. The plant is illegal in the states, and ordering the plant into the U.S. is not only stupid because of its legal status, but also risky because you will probably not even receive real Ibogaine... after all, it's illegal. Who wants to break the law for YOU?? Especially when they can send you some ginseng for the same price, and you'll never know the difference...

OK, so anyways... The other day, I was reading a journal entry in Science magazine (will post if anyone's interested) about Ibogaine and its current status in addiction medicine & medical research. From what the article stated about the known activities of ibogaine on the human CNS, I came up with some possibly interesting alternatives to Ibogaine therapy.

On second thought, I'm going to start a new thread in this section (addiction) on Possible Ibogaine Replacements for Opiate Addiction Cure.

My ideas include the experiences I've gleaned from many of the online community of experimenters with so-called research chems as well as another well-known OTC agent: DXM.

I'll be working on the new thread discussion tonight. Please feel free to contribute as much or as little as you like. I will be glad to accept PMs if SWIY has any experience with delayed withdrawal symptom and/or any other kind of "life-changing" introspective experience with DXM, any PEAs (currently in my group of possibilities are 2C-I and 2C-E), or ANY other drugs, herbs, foods, or other agents that might help with opiate withdrawal.

These can be anything that delays the onset of WD symptoms, alleviates or lessens WDs, allows the user to sleep through the WD, or helps make the addict become more AWARE of his/her situation as an addict--making the problem clearer and thus something to be dealt with rather than denying its existence.

[Nicaine]

One thing though. Going cold turkey after a long addiction is DANGEROUS. If you try this on, you better have already lowered your opiate use a bit.
IMO it depends on the person's health at the time of the kick. A thorough physical exam should be a minimum, with the side benefit of being honest with the doctor about the situation and requesting a script for clonidine (patches or pills). There's no reason why anyone should suffer needlessly without SOME sort of temporary helper substance.

[dietrich]

It definately depends on the physical health of the lab rat in question. But SWIM does not recommend doing this kind of withdrawel cold turkey. This sounds like an interesting recipe... however, SWIM would like to add that using the benzos to switch to subutex for a few days and then downgrading using your recipe may more helpful. Serious addicts won't be able to sleep no matter what they take, ok... to a certain extent anyway. Thus, make sure you stay safe on the benzos and make sure you don't get hooked on those instead!!! trust me, many lab rats have informed me that the withdrawel from those is just as bad and more physically dangerous than opiates. I haven't managed to ever get hooked on benzos, thank goodness, but lab rats say its a bitch! so beware and good luck to all who are going this long hard road!

[kizevin]

One thing though. Going cold turkey after a long addiction is DANGEROUS. If you try this on, you better have already lowered your opiate use a bit.

Ah yes, fortunately opiate addicts normally don't die kicking. Benzo addicts and alcoholics CAN die as a DIRECT result of their withdraw, but opiate addicts just want to kill themselves during the process.

For anyone trying to kick opiates, benga's method sounds good. My good friend SWIM went through the old fashioned 28 day inpatient rehab program at 12 Oaks in Florida, and he said it was absolute hell. Medicated detox just means that when you're coming off of 80mg of methadone they give you clonidine, robaxen(sp?), and DARVOCET. He told them "I spent the last few years ingesting 80mg of methadone a day plus other opiates and cocaine and marijuana and benzos and alcohol and the best you can do is DARVOCET? Well, apparentally it worked for SWIM and he has been clean and sober for seven months now. People can recover!

[gojira]

WARNING: OFFENSIVE MATERIAL!!! DO NOTREAD UNLESS YOU'RE READY TO QUIT!!
Now that you've been warned, I am apologizing for hurting anyone else's feelings who thinks that he/she is a candidate for this therapy...



Thanks man, I needed that, you are right. I hope this bupe thing works, if it doesn't and my kidneys shut down from dehydration from puking more than I could replenish like they did last time, my ghost'll come looking fer ya1 ;{

[Beltane]

Jerry Stahl mentioned bupe's in the book 'Permanent Midnight.' He remarked that they made coming off dope so easy that he found himself using again because he knew he could kick so easily.

SWIM's never been hooked on opiates, but took Jerry at his word and has since believed that there's no excuse for being a victim of opiate addiction.

SWIM has no problem with a person who makes a conscious choice to use. But if they actually want to stop, he believes Bupes are the way to go. SWIM has also heard doctors who specialize in addiction say similar things about the effectiveness of Bupes.

- Beltane

[tayo]

SWIM thought highly of hirself as a "savage" and thought SWIM could conquer opiate withdrawal psychologically. With every othe substance SWIM had tried, it was psychological. Priding hirself in going cold turkey, SWIM stopped. Last dosage was 30mg insufflated hydromorphone, previous days 80mg oxycontin, 100mg morphine sulfate. Anyway, it doesn't work god damnit! SWIM tried to cover it as the flu for three days, but it was the most painful 5 days of SWIMs life, eating about 500 calories a day, shaking, nightmares, insomnia, hot cold sweats, diarhea, cramps, everything. Opiates truly call for intervention, it's not just for people that shoot up heroin. SWIM would imagine that a shitload of weed, and some benzos could have helped. If you go to the doc and are just a binge user they'll most likely give you clonidine (a blood pressure medication) to take 3 times a day for the shakes and adrenal irritation of withdrawals and something for sleep. Sometimes along with a long acting benzodiazepine.

[keats]

I completely disagree with your advice, richard. Why would you purposely let yourself fall back into addiction if you've already kicked the habit? Maybe you're implying it's impossible to beat otherwise. If so I think that's incorrect, most of the people I've known who've successfully beat their habit beat it cold turkey and the first time. The sort of person you're describing, who's so weak willed that they need to purposely relapse in order to beat their addiction, are probably going to just relapse anyway. Letting yourself start taking the drugs you just beat is only encouraging your own habit, regardless of whether you've convinced yourself it's "just for some perspective". Your post didn't offend me, but I'd strongly recommend against anyone following your advice.

[VincentVan]

No Keats.
SWIM has heard quite a few people that after a long fight to rid themselves of addiction to H , confessed that they wished to get the habit again, because they felt that the deepest pleasure to be had from heroin is to satisfy the crave when you feel the urge.

SWIM has more things he would like to tell you, but he´s very busy at the moment; so he told me to leave you this message.
He wrote it for you:


My vice
My real vice
has always been the vice of perfection
this despicable vice
of finding diamonds
among filth and infection.

And my pleasure
my only real pleasure
has come from loving & not needing possession.
It has come from these wounds,
still open, still deep , bleeding wounds
which I earned while fighting my obsession.

It´s an horrible vice
It´s the deepest of pleasures
It´s sad,
but the story of this life
was a story of deception.

That´s what SWIM said.
Bye

VV

[kritikal]

I can understand what richard is saying. To actually experience a rehab for a good chunk of a year and then to actually use again it just doesnt feel the same. you take note of what you have learned, feel guilty and shamed and you do notice a change in persona.

Many people dont get it right the first time. It takes a relapse for most just to really understand how fuked it is.

[infekt]

^^^ Relapse can be a part of recovery. Doesn't always have to be, but accept the fact that it may. Don't beat yourself over it. The shame, guilt, and self loathing can drive you back to insanity. Accept the things you cannot change (such as the past)...this is the only way to beat addiciton.

[VincentVan]

[QUOTE=~lostgurl~;231298]Opiates:



Good advice, clonidine works! SWIM found it worked best when combined with small doses of methadone (4 days - 20mg, 15mg, 10mg, 5mg). The worst part of opiate withdrawal for swim was the Restless Legs Syndrome (RLS) which prevented her from sleeping no matter how many sleeping pills or benzos she took.


Swim is positive that Lostgurl's friend discomfort was due to her interrupting the methadone far too early.
She should have continued for afew more days with 3mg. 2mg, 1.5,1, 0.7 ,0.5, and even 0.3.
Swim is not ashamed to tell you that sometimes he continued to 0.2 mg, and 0.1, after wich he realized that he had been drinking pure water for the last few days.
In the jails of his country, upon request of the inmate, it is offered a similar 2 weeks treatment that for some reson the authorities interrupt when the patient/inmate gets down to 2 mg.
Everyone Swim has talked to who have tried this treatment said that they found it very easy to come down until the 2mg but very hard when the treatment was interrupted and Swim has no difficulties in believing this, and can´t stop thanking his God thet he never had to go through it.

VV

"If the truth can be explained it will be belived too."
(Paul of Tarsus)

[JaWill88]

swim has heard many talk of buprenorphine as the miracle drug. oh and it definately can be, no doubt about it. if swiy has a serious habbit, hoppes on bup for 5 or 6 days, they get out of withdrawal free. but how about the other side of buprenorphine. satan. thats what swim calls it. DO NOT use buprenorphine for maintenance, as in taking it for months at a time. swim has been on it for a year and would rather suffer major heroin withdrawals any day of the week. why? because the withdrawals are soooo damn long. swim started to kick like 2 weeks ago and is in the PEAK of the withdrawals. but swim gave in and took an 8mg pill today and feels heavenly. hes actually high because he hadn't taken it in so long. and his normal dose is the highest possible. 32mg a day (16mg 2x a day) note that is also why swims withdrawals are so bad. and also swim did no taper. anyways swim can't take this shit anymore (going fucking insane) and is actually going back on heroin for a couple weeks, then suboxone for like 4 days, then some benzos, and thats it. swim just wants to let people know the other side of buprenorphine. very long lasting like methadone, it blows ass. good luck to swiys kicking.

[JaWill88]

oh yeah by the way, buprenorphine withdrawals are even longer then methadone as the half life is quite a bit longer. it really blows ass. if one is on bup maintenance, then do slow as taper as possible, otherwise swiy is looking for trouble. and the longer one is on it, the more intensity and duration of the withdrawal. swims friend was on methadone for 2 years and tapered and had an aweful time but made it. that same friend was on buprenorphine for 1 year, tapered, and had a way way way worse time coming off. he said it was never ending. good luck people

[VincentVan]

Buprenorphine maintenance for a full year yeah?
What kind of criminal would prescribe that?

On all the boxes of B. SWIM has seen it was always clearly spelled out in three (scandinavian) languages that the preparate should never , in any case , be taken for more than four consecutive weeks.
There is really no point in getting hold of the right medicament for your affliction if then it is taken in an inappropriate way.
Both methadone & Buprenorphine must be taken in decreasing doses AND for limited periods.
They are not recreational drugs nor substitutes for them.
They should be taken, and taken properly, only by people commited to get off opiates; or the damages they would cause would surely outstrip any possible benefit to be had from them.
(Methadone has recently been adopted in the therapy of pain too, but that´s another story and Swim doesn't know much about it)

If assumed correctly, these soubstances (in SWIM opinion methadone is still the best) really can do wonders.
Think of it like some sort of nicotine patch.
If you know that anyway you' re gonna smoke your usual two paks of Pall Mall a day, then you really are better off without it.
And if you gave up smoking only to notice that you need to stick more and more patches all over your body , I would suggest you to go back to your favourite brand of cigs.

It must always be clear that all these substances can only help you (albait in some case very much so) to get rid of addiction, but they are never going to get rid of the addiction in your stead.

Moreover, unless you know for sure that your doc can be trusted IN THIS SPECIFIC FIELD, the drugs you may get from him are not necessarily better than the ones you may get from your pusher; and their effects can even be far worse.
You don't have to take SWIM's word for it. Just look at the damage done by inappropriate prescriptions of benzodiazepines, barbiturates and psichofarmaceuticals to get an idea of the risks involved in trusting your body to someone who got a medical degree only because his daddy had the money to keep him in a university long enough.

As always your best defense is knowledge.
Be informed in what you're doing before you start doing it.

As the latins used to say:
Errare humanum est, sed diabolicum perseverare.

VV

[Dammaged]

You've got to be kidding.....right?
I hate to make my entrance here as a fish.....or I guess newbie....... on a negative note. Recipe for kicking..........you can't be serious....lol.....that's right up there with "Send $5 and lose weight while you sleep.!"
Kicking is a struggle....there are no quick fixes or recipes.......if there were....I'd be rich.....

[UNIBLACK810]

[quote=Be-Bop;106560]I have taken 15-20 5mg Valiums to try & help me sleep during withdrawal...not being able to sleep, & the tossing & turning, & the 'tension' in the wrists &shoulders etc is THE THING which drives me up the fucking wall...... but i find that while A LOT of Benzos may knock me out for 45min..on the whole, it just leaves me reeling & disorientated...makes it harder to keep things in 'perspective' (ie...increases risk of thinking 'fuck it', & scoring) & leaves me feeling twice as bad in the Mourning...


I have finally recognized, for me anyway, SLEEP is just not going to happen in the first few days-week of withdrawal... & i used to get myself in TROUBLE trying to 'make' it happen....


That said, i agree very muchly with most of the other suggestions in the post....eating, vitamins, hot baths & exercise are ALL really good things to do in order to make withdrawal as 'tolerable' as possible (?), the only thing i have found benzos 'good' for, & some pot helps with this as well..is to keep myself from FREAKING OUT at the sense of the ENOURMITY of it all!!! & to try & keep everything calm& in perspective (the same word again, mmmm???


SWIM has to also agree with this. As for SWIM benzo's and shit like benadryl valium's all make me feel worse. Also agreed is that unless you have a very small opiate addiction sleep is nearly impossible in the first week or so which probably accounts for all the malaise you feel afterwards. But the little sleep you do get is very small which hardly helps any. What SWIM realized is that the best cure for opiate withdrawl cold turkey is time and time only. SWIM means there arer a few things that wil help but as far as sleep is concerned time is the only thing that really does the trick with none of the after effects. Best advice,,,,,,,just dont start.

[shembelial]

I have reached point x. Can go crazy on narcs for months and stop easily enough with codeine lorazepam and of course imodium. Just got off a nice tea trip with minimal withdrawl. The hardest habit to kick is the first one. After having quit dozens of time it does get easier but it is never fun. My last habit about a year ago really wasn t fun, had cold sweats for at least a month anf of course constant cravings. Severe withdrawl for 4 days and two weeks of feeling listless. Thank god i never injected anything i think that would be more severe to withdrawl from. Talking about it also helps so a forum like this is also therapeutic.

[oldbulllee]

the only routine that worked for SWIM,since SWIM is such a shit, is to go somewhere where nothing can be scored.
then just ride it through. keeping in mind that it's really nothing,the pains, insomnia, paranoia etc.,in the grand scheme of things.

[piggyinthemiddle]

Going cold turkey and using benzo's to try and get to sleep is a recipe for disaster. They don't work, and if one were to try to force the issue you could get yourself into all sorts of trouble. T.o.m tried it once and spent the following morning wandering around the neighbourhood hallucinating. Treat the original posts advice with caution IMHO.

[~lostgurl~]

Going cold turkey and using benzo's to try and get to sleep is a recipe for disaster. They don't work, and if one were to try to force the issue you could get yourself into all sorts of trouble. T.o.m tried it once and spent the following morning wandering around the neighbourhood hallucinating. Treat the original posts advice with caution IMHO.

Restless Legs Syndrome is the main reason that a person cannot sleep while going through opiate withdrawal. Benzodiazepines can help with RLS but alone they may not be enough to let one sleep. If one cannot sleep after taking medications at doses that should induce sleep then one can do all sorts of crazy things. Thus, benzos should be helpful with opiate withdrawal if other meds for RLS are taken concurrently ie clonidine, methadone or carbamazepine. If nothing else is taken to help with the RLS symptoms then benzos alone could result with one staying awake and becoming extremely disorientated.

Although Benzodiazepines can help with RLS symptoms in opiate withdrawal, other sleeping pills like zopiclone and ambien will often make it worse leaving a person tired, disorientated and kicking/jerking constantly enough that sleep cannot occur.

Antidepressants, especially tricyclics will usually worsen RLS, as will antihistamines like Benadryl and also many antipsycotics.

Everyone is affected differently, some do not find sleep a problem when kicking, but those that do may want to cut these medications from their treatment plan. If you take any of these medications regularly, please see your Dr before ceasing use.

More information on RLS can be found at www.rls.org

[tyrus568]

SWIM has a laughably weak habit that hasn't been sustained for very long, yet he suffers pretty severe withdrawal (from light-to-moderate levels of poppy tea use only). RLS is one of the biggest factors in his (week-long?) WDs.

RLS certainly makes sleeping more difficult and in his experience bendaryl certainly worsens the effect. He is currently taking an antidepressant called citalopram (celexa) combined with wellbutrin (bupropion extended release) and he didn't realize that these two medications could possibly be making the quitting harder? As far as he's been on anti-depressants for over a decade (paxil, zoloft, cymbalta etc) and they're never done jack for him he is about to cease using these medications (20 mg celexa shouldn't be difficult to stop, but he may titrate if he has to) - and he's not going to see his doctor about it first. It's his problem and he knows what he is doing and the possible ramifications... considering now the reports are coming out about anti-depressants causing suicidal ideations he is sick and tired of the whole thing.

[Richard_smoker]

in response to the issue of long-term buprenorphine maintenance therapy--this is something that is currently being done in the U.S. For the last year or 2, suboxone & subutex have been available in MASSIVE doses, and the physician requirement is laughable (you can find the tests online...i think they're at the suboxone website). takes about 30 minutes to read thru some generalized b.s. about opiate withdrawal & how bupe works...

I must say that this several-year long "forever"-maintenance therapy is creating some serious monsters.

Bupe is perhaps the weirdest drug ever in terms of getting off it. Is this the normal experience: to feel sleepy for several weeks? i know of someone who literally couldn't get off the couch for a period in excess of an entire month after stopping the bupe. unfortunately, that person found a tiny speck of a pill in his dresser drawer, and discovered that it was the fucking BUPE WITHDRAWAL itself that was keeping him permanently glued to his couch in continuous exhaustion and lethargy!

Unless you are just impossible at staying clean, I would think long and hard before I asked a doctor to place me on long-term bupe therapy! -DICK

[imyourlittlebare]

clonadine takes care of the symptoms because most of the symptoms are due to overloads of norepinephrine. But most people bitch about how it makes them tires so they stop. Its funny how swims work. Swim is getting off suboxone soon. l-tyrosine wont help much. It increases the chemical changes of phenylenaline which may decrease the breakdown of endorphins. Clonadine helps. So does lycira. Lycira or Pregablin inhibits glutamate, norepinephrine and other neurotransmitters involved in your pain. Benzos can help with the pain because they decrease norepinephrine peripherally too on top of in the brain. Cant get those then a certain breed of skullcap contains an alkaloid that binds to the benzodiazepine receptor and l theonine increases the amounts of GABA released so you may increase the amount of relief you get.

[lorzapmail]

Swim has seen this on the web many times, but here it goes again. Unless you shoot "H" every four hours this should work. Start Imodium right away 4 mg every 4 hours. Take Clonezapam or Valium ( the long half-life benzos) every 6 to 10 hours. Swim is not allowed to say how much. Take B-complex 50's (not 50 pills) vitamins twice a day. Take potassium,bananas, etc, 3 or 4 a day. Alieve for RLS (restless leg syndrome). Get plenty sunlight vitamin d3 . Plenty of sleep. Chicken noodle soup and jello. After a three days take walks. Try to remember your favorite hobbies and do them. This is the short version. In 3 or 4 days the pain will be gone. Then you can deal with the mental problems. There are many books on it. Use them to hit yourself over the head with them. Don't get into this situation again. Like right.

lorzapmail added 19 Minutes and 3 Seconds later...

More.. Imodium (lopamide) was first made in the hopes of a new pain killer, sadly it didn't work But is related to opioids. It will help the W/D's. Swim has been through this many, many times. Liquid imodium works best but pills also will do the trick. A post swim read about taking 50 or a 100 Imodium is nosense, do not do this. Don't forget Valium or Clonzepam, B-complex,Potassium and alieve or the new RLs med for leg flopping. If you can get them, try to buy ahead. Taper down your opioids. If swim can cut down so can you! Take these items for 4 days. You should do fine. Swim did not make this up it it is commonly known.

[Dickon]

In a hypothetical dream a rabbit told me this: no idea why.

I wish I could cut through all the confusion here. My favourite thread on this subject is called "How to go cold turkey from 150mgs methadone! the easy way" in this section. It's not altogether practical for home use (i.e. iv nutrients etc.), but is written by a medical doctor with 18 years of personal experience with opiate addiction, and can be adapted.

Personally I'd say the one ESSENTIAL is clonidine or lofexidine or other alpha-2 adrenergic agonist. Everything else is window-dressing.

I'm 20 days into a methadone w.d. and have used god knows how many supplements (including alpha-lipoic acid, milk thistle (both for detox), multi-vits and minerals, Omega 3-6-9 (both general good stuff), amino acids (body repair), diclofenac (NSAI pain killer), Valerian capsules and Chamomile Tea (sleep), antihistamines (non-sedating, just in case there's a histaminic component to w.d.s, I don't get on with anticholinergics), adrenal extract (lethargy)). I have deliberately avoided sedating-antihistamines (reason stated above), loperamide (it's an opiate. Isn't that what I'm trying to quit!!!????). I have also avoided benzodiazepines. I didn't have any. I am actually glad about this with hindsight. For a baby habit you can basically do a home detox-5 by simply drugging yourself to semi-sleep for a week using benzodiazepines and taking clonidine to alleviate the w.d.s. This will not work for a serious habit, and I think benzos might remove inhibitions and also leave a hang-over, for which the obvious cure is using opiates. I remain ambivalent about benzo use in w.d.

Oh and don't kid yourself if you get rid of restless-leg you'll sleep. That is simply wrong in my opinion. There is too much multi-dimensional shit happening for sleep to follow from the alleviation of one w.d. symptom. My own experience is that one achieves a state of quiescence where one can lie relatively still in bed quite a bit before one actually gets much sleep. This intermediate phase is actually a Godsend because it means one can REST, even if not sleep. My one little bit of advice for restless-leg is to ham it up a bit, and go crazy! Just spasm away for a few minutes and that will bring a brief respite (well we are playing the percentages here).

You will not sleep for some time. Or if you do it's more by luck than judgment. But I think all-in-all the main ingredient is nothing other than attitude of mind. Search for the painless one, believe it will be easy, but don't give up when it's not, and maybe convince yourself that all the weird and wacky pills and potions will make the w.d. end tomorrow. That way getting through the day will be a lot easier. Then when tomorrow comes just realize you were one day out. The best part of supplements is it gives you something to do, and maybe a bit of placebo effect. Who knows they might even work, but I'd not hold your breath, at least not in the acute phase of w.d.s. Clonidine is a different matter. It turns the unbearable into the almost-unbearable, and that with the right mindset is ALL you need!

Best of luck to all who attempt this difficult journey. My own story is on the "Screaming in the night air...." thread. It may or may not be encouraging and/or contain useful information, but we're all different and what works for me might not work for you.

Dickon

[lorzapmail]

Some of your ideas will work for some, others not. As swim has said many times everyone is different and addiction degree varies greatly. Swim has never know of anyone getting addicted Lopermide the chemical makup just isn't there. Swim finds benzos great for lowering blood pressure, anxiety and sleep. The the vitamins, etc. work for swim. Again everyone is different. Good luck.

[imyourlittlebare]

In a hypothetical dream a rabbit told me this: no idea why.

I wish I could cut through all the confusion here. My favourite thread on this subject is called "How to go cold turkey from 150mgs methadone! the easy way" in this section. It's not altogether practical for home use (i.e. iv nutrients etc.), but is written by a medical doctor with 18 years of personal experience with opiate addiction, and can be adapted.

Personally I'd say the one ESSENTIAL is clonidine or lofexidine or other alpha-2 adrenergic agonist. Everything else is window-dressing.

I'm 20 days into a methadone w.d. and have used god knows how many supplements (including alpha-lipoic acid, milk thistle (both for detox), multi-vits and minerals, Omega 3-6-9 (both general good stuff), amino acids (body repair), diclofenac (NSAI pain killer), Valerian capsules and Chamomile Tea (sleep), antihistamines (non-sedating, just in case there's a histaminic component to w.d.s, I don't get on with anticholinergics), adrenal extract (lethargy)). I have deliberately avoided sedating-antihistamines (reason stated above), loperamide (it's an opiate. Isn't that what I'm trying to quit!!!????). I have also avoided benzodiazepines. I didn't have any. I am actually glad about this with hindsight. For a baby habit you can basically do a home detox-5 by simply drugging yourself to semi-sleep for a week using benzodiazepines and taking clonidine to alleviate the w.d.s. This will not work for a serious habit, and I think benzos might remove inhibitions and also leave a hang-over, for which the obvious cure is using opiates. I remain ambivalent about benzo use in w.d.

Oh and don't kid yourself if you get rid of restless-leg you'll sleep. That is simply wrong in my opinion. There is too much multi-dimensional shit happening for sleep to follow from the alleviation of one w.d. symptom. My own experience is that one achieves a state of quiescence where one can lie relatively still in bed quite a bit before one actually gets much sleep. This intermediate phase is actually a Godsend because it means one can REST, even if not sleep. My one little bit of advice for restless-leg is to ham it up a bit, and go crazy! Just spasm away for a few minutes and that will bring a brief respite (well we are playing the percentages here).

You will not sleep for some time. Or if you do it's more by luck than judgment. But I think all-in-all the main ingredient is nothing other than attitude of mind. Search for the painless one, believe it will be easy, but don't give up when it's not, and maybe convince yourself that all the weird and wacky pills and potions will make the w.d. end tomorrow. That way getting through the day will be a lot easier. Then when tomorrow comes just realize you were one day out. The best part of supplements is it gives you something to do, and maybe a bit of placebo effect. Who knows they might even work, but I'd not hold your breath, at least not in the acute phase of w.d.s. Clonidine is a different matter. It turns the unbearable into the almost-unbearable, and that with the right mindset is ALL you need!

Best of luck to all who attempt this difficult journey. My own story is on the "Screaming in the night air...." thread. It may or may not be encouraging and/or contain useful information, but we're all different and what works for me might not work for you.

Dickon

dont have alot of time. loperamide does not pass the BBB. Wont hurt. Will stop diarehea